The musicians are almost extinct

[waxahachie]

Originally Posted by teethofgold

re: musician, dj, producer

musician - someone who plays a musical instrument (no creativity needed, just skill to play the song... think orchestra)

dj - someone who plays back pre-recorded music

producer - someone who coordinates musicians (or musical elements) to "produce" music

that's my definition... and these days a lot of people are a mix of the three... not to mention that there are composers, songwriters etc... but they don't really apply to electronic music as much.

regarding people jamming with arpeggiators and such... I tend to think of electronic dance music as modern folk music... which I see as music made by the people who enjoy it... so if people are happy playing (and enjoying) other people's music, then who cares?

regardless... I've only seen one person truly play techno music live on a keyboard... it was the dude from rabbit in the moon. he was hitting a pad to trigger a kick drum with one hand while playing keyboard riffs with the other... and it was awesome!

Agree with your definition.

Disagree about "electronic dance music as modern folk music".

Disagree about only one person play electronic music, the electronic/techno/dance belongs to late 70's until today actually still very popular and loved especially in Europe.

Disagree about players the list of professional musicians is endless like: Giorgio Moroder, Gino Soccio, Bobbie Orlando, Emerson and Lake and Palmer, Yazoo, Erasure, Labouche, New Order, Pet Shop Boys, Herbie Hancok, Tomas Dolby, Stevie Wonder, Jean Michell Jarre, etc, etc, etc endless number of real players on the 70's, 80's and 90's, even today.
What happens is the technologie and factories can produce today electronics to low cost and is accesible to too much people even a $3000 synthesizer still accessible comparated with the early electronic music age and credit cards helps too.
I love electronic music like I love Classic music, Jazz, Rock, Salsa Latino even Rock like Mettalica or Rolling Stones, the music is good in every field excempt reggaeton of course.

[Juho L]

Yay! Props for mentioning ELP there!

Saying that electronic music is modern folk music is a crime. When electronic is folk music then rock is definetly classical music. Hoho.

I think people always put their hands on shit when starting to evaluate musicians by the genre or methods of making music. I think the combination of skill and creativity is the thing that makes a musician good or bad. And of course it's very difficult to compare a technically skilled but non-creative player, such as slave trained classical pianist, to a creative but technically inferior bub.

When you think of it, why to rank musicians or genres in the first place? A good music is good music regardless of the musician(s) behind it. It's really simple thing actually.

The most debatable issue actually is what is musicianship. Are the sequencer jammers musicians? Does banging two coconut shells together make one a musician or just a plain horse rider? Well, to be frank, one shouldn't give a shit - It makes life a bit easier. Hoho. When person A says that person B is definetly a musician, well maybe the person B is then. A musician in a terms of profession? Most likely not. But in a general meaning? Definetly yes.

[waxahachie]

What I believe is we have two kind of people, the keyboard players and the keyboard collectors both love keyboards but the player know about music language and the collector or DJ twist knobs (even some DJ's know music).

The answers here speak for each one how much knowledge have the people about music notation.

And the big question : who cares? the answer is "you" because you are only one steep to be a real composer learning music and writing your creations like a professional and speak same language over the planet without need to memorize thousand of visual plays.

Im not your daddy and im not offending im only trying to motivate you guys.

[teethofgold]

when I mentioned rabbit in the moon I meant "one person playing techno music live without sequencing". I'm sure others have done it... but I haven't seen it. discussion of the 70's is not relevant here. 80's electronic music was heavily sequenced (new order? erasure). 90's was the blossoming of electronic dance music... and now here we are... in a world where I have a sample sequencing program on my iphone.

regardless... I heartily defend my definition of electronic music as modern folk music... as not all electronic music is folk music... but some folk music is electronic... and it is folk by definition... not by style. if you're hung up on cliches of irish ditties and bob dylan you are thinking in terms of style. folk music is the music of a culture that they people play for and by themselves. if a large number of people are doing that with electronic music... is it not folk? shoot... what about hip hop? how long before electronic music parties become a "tradition"?

rock music is going to be classical in 200 years... no? ever heard the term "classic rock"? how do you think black sabbath would have felt about that term back in 75?

how about the term "classic rave"? I'm the one and only dominator!

[waxahachie]

You can believe in martians if you want, call you mama for feed you too, is up to you.
Good luck in your music composition.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by waxahachie

The answers here speak for each one how much knowledge have the people about music notation.

Hell with notation. What good is writing and reading if you don't know the language. Notation is a triviality in this case. It's a tool, not music itself.

And the big question : who cares? the answer is "you" because you are only one steep to be a real composer learning music and writing your creations like a professional and speak same language over the planet without need to memorize thousand of visual plays.

It's kinda paradoxal to first speak of importance of understanding of notation as a basis of music (in aggravatevily speaking) and then about universal language of music. Universal language of music is rythmic/melodic sound - Not the mice shit on paper. Hoho.

Originally Posted by teethofgold

discussion of the 70's is not relevant here. 80's electronic music was heavily sequenced (new order? erasure). 90's was the blossoming of electronic dance music... and now here we are... in a world where I have a sample sequencing program on my iphone.

Hey, it is relevant! Same shit, different decade, you know. The technology just have offered a new ways to "cheat" in good and bad. Like I mentioned in my last post, it's a double-edged sword. Technology is not an excuse for wiping out the principles and importance of music in terms of theory and playing.

regardless... I heartily defend my definition of electronic music as modern folk music... as not all electronic music is folk music... but some folk music is electronic... and it is folk by definition... not by style.

What we now need is your definition of folk music. As you know, for example Encyclopedia Britannica defines folk music this way: "type of traditional and generally rural music that originally was passed down through families and other small social groups."

Now we need to fit electronic music in that definition. It is possible to create folk music influenced electornic music, but electronic music being folk music? Nope. The problem is that folk music has even more deeper historical roots than classical music. It's very tightly bond to regional cultural heritages.

how long before electronic music parties become a "tradition"?

Really long. For example Finnish folk has its roots in over thousand years in the past. The folk of US is probably the only "new" folk, but it has most of its roots in Irish and British folk, so its not genuinely new either.

By the way what is this obsession with folk anyways? A some certain music being folk doesn't make it any better. It's just a way to differiate culturally and thus historically relevant music from others, just like rock as a genre defines rock music. Genres are there for making defining music easier. Messing the genres just cause confusion.

rock music is going to be classical in 200 years... no? ever heard the term "classic rock"? how do you think black sabbath would have felt about that term back in 75?

how about the term "classic rave"? I'm the one and only dominator!

Classical is classical and probably always will be. It's just all triviality. Let's not confuse people with mixing genre stuff in sake of mixing genres.

[teethofgold]

the definition you provided for folk music is the one I agree with! what will people look back upon from our modern culture and view as "historically significant" music of the people?

the real point is that not all of these people are trying to be rock stars... much like folk musicians aren't trying to be successful... they are just playing the music because they love it. there is room for new traditions... give it time...

still... this discussion of "people can't play keyboards" is seriously flawed in that some of the best electronic music (in my opinion) is not even physically possible to play.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by teethofgold

the definition you provided for folk music is the one I agree with! what will people look back upon from our modern culture and view as "historically significant" music of the people?

the real point is that not all of these people are trying to be rock stars... much like folk musicians aren't trying to be successful... they are just playing the music because they love it. there is room for new traditions... give it time...

Folk has its roots in the roots of historic culture of the whole nation. That's the reason why electronic music cannot be, or even become, folk in the frames defined earlier. Well, to be exact, electronic music can become folk if you somehow manage to put up a completely new nation with its own cultural heritage includes electronic music, but that just seems utopistic.

still... this discussion of "people can't play keyboards" is seriously flawed in that some of the best electronic music (in my opinion) is not even physically possible to play.

Somehow the whole thread started to revolve around playing instead of general knowledge of basics of music. That's wrong way. Music and playing are different things. Playing is part of music, but not music itself.

Sure thing composer can be lousy player. For example I am a crappy player, but it doesn't prevent me from composing. Although complete lack of knowledge of theory of music and the basic concepts would seriously hinder my composing, or even making it completely impossible. You couldn't play or compose without knowing the basics and theory of music. So in conclusion music is theory and basics. There is no language without grammar. Now this is the point I'm after!

[LivePsy]

Originally Posted by teethofgold

still... this discussion of "people can't play keyboards" is seriously flawed in that some of the best electronic music (in my opinion) is not even physically possible to play.

This is true, and it is also true that the sound is far more important than the notes. We're treating music like its 600 years ago and musical scales somehow are relevant. Learning music LIMITs you incredibly, but learning to listen and eventually create something you hear inside is the real skill.

I've learnt piano passing all the grades in NZ and frankly had to unlearn a lot of crap to start appreciating and then making electronic music. Music is NOT about notes, its about sounds and silence. When we were able to create any sound imaginable, we left traditional music behind. Some of us just don't realise it yet...

B