Using feedback on the Virus to sound design

[TweakHead]

Just thought about this, because of Monark's "feedback" knob. I know the Virus can do this (except maybe for the snow, because it's got no audio ins), so, to all you knob tweaking scientists out there, have you made good use of this? in what sort of patches? share ideas!!!

[namnibor]

Is the feedback on Virus "tuned" feedback, as in relation to pitch? I ask because I have not tried this on Virus but it's an extensive feature with the DSI Mono Evolver Keyboard that's been eating my gray matter and time as of late

[TweakHead]

What I meant was really feeding the signal back to the inputs. I know you can use the buses on the virus, to connect say, part 1 of a multi to a part 2. I don't have my setup connected, but was wondering if you could feed one sound with itself (even if you had to repeat the same patch for the two parts, which would be odd, but...) to get some sort of feedback like sound, like you do on the mini moog or some other synthesizers that route the signal back to be mixed in and filtered again and such.

EDIT

Thinking about it, I don't think this is possible. Thought about the input modes, it kills the voices of the virus and filters the incoming signal directly. And if I was to choose some part sent do aux1 (for example) I could only do that or use the vocoder, that's it. would be a nice addition to the Virus possibilities though.

[namnibor]

I thought that just as there's like three different set-ups for midi unique to the Virus, that there's also like three different 'modes' of use with the external inputs??
Here is from page 150 Virus C User Manual:

"THE VIRUS AS AN EFFECT DEVICE: You're free to install the Virus into your studio environment and use it as an effect device or signal processor. For example, simply connect the external inputs to any available aux send bus or effect send on your mixer or to the individual outputs of a sampler or other sound generator. This set-up lets you mix sundry signals outside the Virus and patch the mixed signals into the Virus for further processing.

...AND VICE VERSA
SECOND OUTPUT Balance lets you create a separate mix IN THE VIRUS ITSELF. This signal may then be PATCHED OUT via the selected output (SECOND OUTPUT Select) to a mixer OR DIRECTLY to a connected effect device, where it can be processed further.

...ALTERNATIVELY, this mix can ALSO be routed TO ANOTHER *PART OF THE VIRUS*, where it can be filtered or distorted. For this purpose, be sure to select the same AUX BUS for SECOND OUTPUT SELECT and for the INPUT SELECT of the given PART."

I copied this directly from Virus C user Manual verbatim, because seems to me with that information, albeit leaving wide open to experimentation, am open to experimenting once I have stuff all together again. Not even Moog "officially" condoned the practice of musicians patching outputs right back into CV/Gate In to create a feedback loop and if you watched that video of the older engineer that's worked with Robert Moog where he was playing on a yet to be complete Sub Phatty that had circuit boards and control panel façade not made yet--he was talking about how the new Sub Phatty was first 'official time' that very feedback was created as an official "effect" using "tuned feedback" along with like saturation and drive.

So, in your experimenting, it might be pragmatic to watch your volume levels in the event you have a woofer drive fly across your studio area from a "happy accident".
I like thinking outside the box and by what I copied from manual, in all of it's rather vagueness, it seems at least in latter half it was implying this IS possible. I know the word 'distortion' was used rather than 'feedback', please let us know what you discover!!

[TweakHead]

Maybe I'll plug the Virus and some cables in today just for this! Doesn't hurt, uh? My studio is still in boxes as I sent my mac to repair - which will be done this coming week!

About this subject: I was once programming a synced FM lead on the Virus and I was loving the sound. Then I recorded it to the DAW and it was different. The mistake I made was that I had the soundcard's mixer letting two signals pass: the one from the daw with a few ms lag, and the direct, latency-free, signal coming to the inputs from the Virus. The combined sound had much more depth to it. So I implemented some sort of double that would turn into Haas effect once the delay was different (again, by few ms) on each channel. The result was surprising and nice coupled with some MS(mid-side)/layer with some careful EQ going.

With this feedback thing, I'm interested precisely in this Moog-like effect you talk about: mixing the signal generated by the Virus with that coming from a loop-circuit from the "outs-to-ins", but I think any of the input modes mutes the inner voices of the Virus (the oscillators and inner sources, even ring mod which does play even with osc volume turned down, well, everything except the self oscillating moog-like filters). What's certainly possible, then, is to record the first signal and then send it from the DAW to Virus again for further processing.

I'll take for granted that this feedback thing shares some similarities with what I've done with that sound I talked about earlier: there's some kind of tiny lag from the two signals being mixed. And they're not mixed in like you would mix two signals in a mixer: the first sound gets through the Virus processing chain - say filter 1 to fx, then filter two, then out, gets delayed by a few ms so as to complete the loop circuit, then gets through the virus again.

Even though I'll be able to fake this, it's still a tedious task. Problem is: in the Moog the looped signal (that's generated first and generates the signal that's fed back) is also heard while doing that at the same time, mixed with itself with the corresponding lag and processing.

Liked the idea of the woofer flying

EDIT

So, for further Access development: integrating this must be easy enough to code and I do believe would make an interesting addition to the Virus's possibilities. Along with user drawable waves for both oscillators and LFO (which could have classic and new modes like the Oscillators on Ti line, user drawable wavetables like you find on Zebra. And it wouldn't hurt to have some kind of Massive like modulation with drawable curves as well. Some sort of stepped sequence with curves, or at least some multi-stage envelopes. Virus would be much more up-to-date: with analogue feedback emulated circuitry and dubstep ready features for growling madness and modulation madness. Just saying, of course.

Oh, and Lfos with a wider range - into audio range and being selectable as FM sources. This would also enable a wider range of sounds.

EDIT

If I was a developer, I'd quickly implement a "delay" function for the Unisson as well. To introduce some lag between the original and the extra voices generated. While I'm at it, being able to control the spread for each pair of Unisson voices would also enable some very good stereo effect. Ok, rant over.

[namnibor]

Are you talking "audio" or "MIDI data" as far as the latency? I mean, are you using say midi data you recorded in your DAW then you send that back to Virus to trigger notes and modulation data to trigger audio as for instance the seemingly pragmatic way of doing multi's with Virus C?
If so, and if I am understanding you correctly (got no sleep last night..health crap), is there a chance you may have a midi feedback/loop going on? Sorry if I did not quite understand that!

[TweakHead]

Nope, I was talking about the latency introduced by the audio signal-path. Actually, it's more the soundcard then anything else. If you open your daw and select some audio channel with the input audition mode on, and you have the direct signal from the soundcard mixed in as well, you can ear two signals: one of them being a few ms lagging behind. Any patching will introduce some kind of delay, even if it's unnoticeable, and I'm sure this is the case for the kind of feedback you get using a Moog or anything else. So that's part of the equation when trying to fake such effect.

[namnibor]

This series on SoundOnSound may help with the math behind tricks of frequency modulation: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may0...cles/synth.htm and here's the link to peruse all 36+ VERY useful synthesis workshops, "Synth Secrets", by Gordon Reid on SoundOnSound: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm

Since a typical analog oscillator creates positive feedback that creates a waveform, it would seem that when self oscillation occurs, perhaps that may be negative feedback?
How this works in the math in digital oscillators is admittedly above my math capabilities and reason this series might help you on your quest. I have the link taking you to part 9 because it gets into the frequency modulation feedback at a pretty deep level and hope this helps.
By the way, Sound On Sound has MANY incredible archived Series that are like higher learning synthesis 601.
Have fun! Perhaps play some Kraftwerk, "Pocket Calculator" to add some fun to matter!

[AndrewM]

I know it's totally irrelevant and it doesn't matter... but the Snow does have audio inputs!

[namnibor]

Originally Posted by TweakHead

Nope, I was talking about the latency introduced by the audio signal-path. Actually, it's more the soundcard then anything else. If you open your daw and select some audio channel with the input audition mode on, and you have the direct signal from the soundcard mixed in as well, you can ear two signals: one of them being a few ms lagging behind. Any patching will introduce some kind of delay, even if it's unnoticeable, and I'm sure this is the case for the kind of feedback you get using a Moog or anything else. So that's part of the equation when trying to fake such effect.

tweakhead--One thing the DSI Mono Evolver Keyboard (and whole Evolver line) does VERY well is both tuned and untuned feedback AND ability to place DELAY within 3 different places per voice just about anywhere in the signal chain AND can be used as a modifier or be modulated.
"The tuned feedback in the evolver is a digital delay line with AD/DA conversions in it's path and -as the name says- allows for a tuned feedback that can be played chromatically if setup right. Soundwise the evolver's feedback is more harsh and located in higher frequencies and doesn't instantly add that "minimoog-like-feedback-trick" to make a sound thicker like it does in the mopho/tetra synths." <---user name snowcrash on DSI Forum; sub forum Evolver.
I seriously am convinced YOU would absolutely LOVE an Evolver, but rather the Mono Evolver Keyboard to have all the hands-on knobs/switches. The Desktop Evolver *can be* programmed from panel but it's night/day difference and glad I went the knobby keyed way. However, on the unofficial DSI Forum someone posted all his timely work in set-up/assignments to a Novation Remote SL and just for you and link to download it at end for your future Evolver purchase
This was done by user "Boreg" here on Virus forum with same user name on DSI Forum; sub forum; Evolver.


Joined: 05 Mar 2012
Posts: 3

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:59 pm Post subject: I've made a set of Remote SL templates for DSI Evolver, maybe they can help you.

The left-side controls are the same in all templates - see explanation in the attached picture. The right-side sliders are as follows:

Amp - sliders 1-4 control oscillator levels, sliders 5-8 control amp envelope;

OSC - sliders 1-4 control oscillator levels, sliders 5-8 control FM and ring mod level

Seq1A, Seq1B etc. - sliders 1-8 control sequence values. Note that the resolution is very coarse, you only get values 0,16,32,...96 - but it's still better than nothing, and lets you quickly come up with crazy sequences (you can then edit on the Evolver itself if you need fine-tuning). The buttons under the sliders toggle reset and on/off state for corresponding sequence step.

And btw, changing any parameter via MIDI is reflected on the display (provided that parameter is currently displayed).


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