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General discussion about music production Discussion concerning music production, composing, studio work, sequencing, software, etc.

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  #11  
Old 22.05.2014, 03:13 AM
MBTC MBTC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TweakHead View Post
@MBTC you can only record the virus in real time, no offline rendering is possible; just like if you're using a Moog.
Makes sense to me, the Ultranova is the same way. The only thing I'm unsure about (and maybe it was addressed and I missed it) is that apparently something he's doing is behaving differently in just listening to the track play in Cubase versus voices being stolen in the export stage only. This indicates some output from the Virus is getting into the final file, so given what you've said I have to assume he's exporting real-time or there would be no audio at all if its like the Nova.

I also mentioned the significance of batch exporting multiple channels in Cubase, because the TI being multi-timbral, if someone had multiple patches sending to multiple audio tracks in Cubase, its important to be sure everything is making it into the final set of output files (multiple files rather than one in the case of hardcore Cubendoheads as they would probably work with them independently in Nuendo next, I'm guessing, for a truly pro result).
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  #12  
Old 22.05.2014, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBTC View Post
..... I have to assume he's exporting real-time....
I dont believe the is such a thing as real-time exporting. (edit, ok cubase has it but still I wouldn't count on it.)

The Virus TI is not designed for any Render/Export kind of thing. You might be able to press the button on your DAW and get a file but the TI will just give you all sorts of drama. In a fresh install of your Virus TI a dialog appears when you try to off-line Render/Export/Mixdown etc. saying something like "hey buddy! cant do that. sorry".
In cubase the op needs a vst plugin that captures the stream to a file. or set an audio track to record the master buss and capture/record in real-time..
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  #13  
Old 22.05.2014, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grs View Post
I dont believe the is such a thing as real-time exporting. (edit, ok cubase has it but still I wouldn't count on it.)

The Virus TI is not designed for any Render/Export kind of thing. You might be able to press the button on your DAW and get a file but the TI will just give you all sorts of drama. In a fresh install of your Virus TI a dialog appears when you try to off-line Render/Export/Mixdown etc. saying something like "hey buddy! cant do that. sorry".
In cubase the op needs a vst plugin that captures the stream to a file. or set an audio track to record the master buss and capture/record in real-time..
Real-time exporting would put the Virus in the same situation that he is having positive results with now (well, the closest possible situation without the extra safety net of capturing the audio output before hand). In theory, it should not put any greater demand on the DSP of any single instrument than simply allowing the track to play in its entirety. There could still be some hiccups, but at least it might identify the culprit of the voice stealing. Between what Tweak said and what I think you're saying here, I'm getting the impression the Virus doesn't support even this? That would be too bad, I can do it with pretty much any other synth (the only two HW synths I have to date are the Ultranova and Leipzig but it would work with either or both at same time). It should be doable with the Virus by just unplugging the USB and using regular audio outs if not any other way.
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  #14  
Old 22.05.2014, 11:54 AM
TweakHead TweakHead is offline
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Again, this is just pretty standard stuff. Virus, as far as recording goes behaves pretty much as any external instrument: you need to record it in real time. It has to play through, while recording.

The only problem I think the Op was having was that at some instances, there was to many things going on and that's originated the "note stealing", due to DSP overload - also a common thing in all DSP based hardware.

Virus allows you to change the priority per part, but ultimately when the time to mix down comes, it's best do record every patch on a multi on its own - specially when there's demanding patches involved or to many of them; so as to assure best performance/quality for each. It's really as simple as that.

As far as outputs go, you can go with either analogue outs connected to a sound card; or the audio stream using the usb connection - in which case he'll have the advantage of sample accurate timing; this last point is where the TI is similar to software instruments.

I'm able to record my Virus (C desktop) using the "freeze" function on Ableton, what it does is it records the parts and then the Virus stops receiving and sending audio, it's just an audio clip; so if that's what you mean with this Cubase function, it should - presumably - work properly.

Offline rendering, as you'd do with software is not supported. Not only with the Virus, but with any hardware synth that I know off. Unlike many people say, I feel the Virus DSP is strong enough for most uses, provided the user is familiar with what it can do and can provide a very smooth workflow - even with the C. The TI range has a major advantage though: you get delay and reverb per part on a multi, whilst before that you'd have those set as global fx - for the whole thing; even when using different outs for the parts on a multi. Thus, knowing this, rendering the parts on their own is a no brainer and I feel the same must still be true for the TI, except it makes life easier for arrangement and previewing the sounds while composing - plus some other tasty features that have been added meanwhile.

Multi implementation is actually very strong with the Virus, compared to many other instruments like the Blofeld for example - which is sort of incomplete btw. Number of voices available is also flying above most anything VA on the market, except maybe the Nord Modular (but that's discontinued anyway).
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  #15  
Old 22.05.2014, 03:30 PM
MBTC MBTC is offline
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Cubase has freeze also but it's a little different than audio export - maybe its the same way in Ableton? Freeze comes in handy more when I have a plugins running in the DAW that are CPU heavy (instruments or fx). The advantage is that if I have something like Dune2 playing a thick strings pad with a lot of notes and fx, that single instrument might take up 15-20% or more of CPU by itself. Freeze gives me a way to bring the CPU down to almost 0% usage with one click (actually a single button press the CH Cubase channel controller since it has its own button). It is essentially just creating invisible audio clip of the track behind the scenes, locking the midi data so it can't be edited, and managing it all invisibly, then giving an easy way to unfreeze individual tracks as needed for editing. It's one of the reasons I prefer soft synths from a workflow perspective, treating of midi data and audio as one, whereas I have to treat them as separate entities with my hardware. Freezing of course doesn't work with external instruments which would need to be recorded in real-time anyway. What I wasn't sure about originally is if the TI had the ability to take midi and render it digitally internally to feed back to the DAW - it makes sense to me that it would not, because while the technology is there to do it (the Virus is could be thought of as just a soft synth running on dedicated hardware), it would complicate the TI aspect and it seems they already have their hands full with that.

But I have to say I don't understand why if the OP is talking of simple note stealing from too much DSP demand, why he is getting such different results with simple playback. It should manifest there too unless there is something creating additional DSP demand during export.
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  #16  
Old 22.05.2014, 07:25 PM
TweakHead TweakHead is offline
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The extra struggle while recording (or mixing down) should be the computer's cpu and not the Virus. The extra stress of the internal cpu could mean some added latency in the communication with the Virus, maybe - but all I'm doing here is guessing, really.
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  #17  
Old 22.05.2014, 08:51 PM
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Yeah that's what I mean, it seems like the computers' CPU would take the hit in a mix down, which doesn't explain voices from the Virus missing.
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  #18  
Old 23.05.2014, 12:49 AM
TweakHead TweakHead is offline
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It could explain it. In theory there's a lot going on at once: during a real time exporting of a full track there's a huge cpu load; certainly hope this isn't what the OP is doing - 'cause that's just pushing your luck imo. The thing is: if using the usb for audio streaming and the usb connection is also taking care of the TI thing, where Midi in and out is an open route (if you will), then this gets busy. At the same time, if the cpu is struggling to keep the pace - and that's a common thing considering there might be a lot of latency inducing plug-ins (heavy duty dsp processing can be a cpu hog, as I'm sure you know better then I do); to my mind all of these things together can induce cpu spikes, in which case the added latency could originate this kind of thing.

In most common situations (where one isn't pushing his luck), missing voices is just "note steal" due to DSP overload on the synth. It's got it's own mixer, you can solo the parts, you can record one track at a time in solo, making sure both system resources and the Virus is free from unnecessary struggle and performs as expected. This is, or rather should be, common practice and best way to avoid issues - even timing issues with all types of hardware synths, where latency is always a factor to have in mind. Some ms is ok (sometimes a little bit off the grid doesn't hurt), you can compensate it with sample delay function (many times included on the channels themselves, otherwise as plug-ins, few times the host can compensate the latency and align with the midi).

What matters is to get a routine that works and stick to it and focus on the music, really.
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  #19  
Old 23.05.2014, 11:18 AM
luigi71cx3 luigi71cx3 is offline
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Hello people, I am very happy that my question has ignited a discussion so exhaustive, and I wold to thank each one.

I understood that to make an audio track for each midi track is the best way, so I will do this way. Following an answer from the Access support:

Dear Luigi,
No, the Virus does not operate differently when creating the audio file via the "audio mixdown" function. I monitor the output of Cubase during a realtime export, so I hear if anything goes wrong already during this process. Are you doing the same?
Also does this already go wrong if you do a test and simply solo the TI tracks and then create an audio file out of this? (by "printing an audio file" I literally mean creating an audio file with the audio mixdown function or whatever process a music software provides for this).


As you can see doing an audio track each midi track is also suggested by them.
Probabily the Virus TI2 does not suffer of this issue (maybe it can play the tracks simultaneously during the mixdown without matters).
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  #20  
Old 23.05.2014, 12:57 PM
TweakHead TweakHead is offline
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^TI2 is the same as TI, only with 25% more DSP power. Depending on the complexity of the patches, it will get to a point where there's note stealing.

This is something that has to be done with all hardware synths: you need to record them! The thing is: if you had, say, a polyphonic analogue, you would then be limited to the number of voices it's got (say 5 on a Prophet 5, for example). In this case, if you were to press 6 keys at once, it would only play 5, 'cause it can't possibly reproduce more. What happens with DSP is that every time you add a unison voice, for example, it's replicating everything that's going on with a patch (so do the math). So this has been (still is) the major advantage of virtual analogue technology over analogue - the limits are either set previously with some margin (so as to allow the engine not to overload even when pushed to extremes, which is kind of conservative); or - that I think is the case with the Virus - you can use the entirety of the DSP power available until you hit the ceiling. The later, of course, has to rely on the user's best judgement. If you were to use your Virus as a single instrument, you'd have a hard time hitting this ceiling (even with the Virus C). When you make the entire engine double itself a couple of times, each part is using its own set of calculations for all the modules: oscillators, filters, so forth and so on; same as when you duplicate some software instrument in software, your cpu takes on a bigger hit. It's the exact same thing. I think its meant to facilitate previewing and not having to make decisions right away, not a substitute for recording. If you were to rely on external instruments to save disk space, if by chance one of them got broken, you wouldn't have your track.

Just take a look at the modern branch of instruments with more demanding DSP going on, it takes a lot of CPU. Stuff like Dune 2 or Diva or Lush 101. Having a hardware unit that can touch those complex patches without compromising workflow (making the project less responsive, more stressed, cpu intensive...) is a great thing to have. Even current low priced mono analogues are good stuff to have. Euro rack is even nicer to have (coupled with ES4). =)
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