The musicians are almost extinct

[waxahachie]

What I believe is we have two kind of people, the keyboard players and the keyboard collectors both love keyboards but the player know about music language and the collector or DJ twist knobs (even some DJ's know music).

The answers here speak for each one how much knowledge have the people about music notation.

And the big question : who cares? the answer is "you" because you are only one steep to be a real composer learning music and writing your creations like a professional and speak same language over the planet without need to memorize thousand of visual plays.

Im not your daddy and im not offending im only trying to motivate you guys.

[teethofgold]

when I mentioned rabbit in the moon I meant "one person playing techno music live without sequencing". I'm sure others have done it... but I haven't seen it. discussion of the 70's is not relevant here. 80's electronic music was heavily sequenced (new order? erasure). 90's was the blossoming of electronic dance music... and now here we are... in a world where I have a sample sequencing program on my iphone.

regardless... I heartily defend my definition of electronic music as modern folk music... as not all electronic music is folk music... but some folk music is electronic... and it is folk by definition... not by style. if you're hung up on cliches of irish ditties and bob dylan you are thinking in terms of style. folk music is the music of a culture that they people play for and by themselves. if a large number of people are doing that with electronic music... is it not folk? shoot... what about hip hop? how long before electronic music parties become a "tradition"?

rock music is going to be classical in 200 years... no? ever heard the term "classic rock"? how do you think black sabbath would have felt about that term back in 75?

how about the term "classic rave"? I'm the one and only dominator!

[waxahachie]

You can believe in martians if you want, call you mama for feed you too, is up to you.
Good luck in your music composition.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by waxahachie

Sure, you can spend your money in whatever you want like a nice car and big ass sport but if you try to drive this car like a rally driver on professional way like you said you will have a bad ending, you can buy it but you will dont drive this car like a crazy mother $%^&^ or you get a ticket in every corner and go to the jail for sure that without mention if you kill somebody on the crazy way. The big diference is one keyboard is not a "weapon" like a car is in literal terms, that car you are talking about if for show what you have. Only if you keyboard is for show you are right. With the keyboard only looks ridiculus only making noises, just for fun is ok but where is the music?

Your analogy is rather crippled there. I'd approach the situation from sports. Spending 600 euros on hockey equipment doesn't make you a hockey player and give you that hockey ass ladies drool after. Hoho. Same goes with music gear, although playing around with synths is much more fun than hanging around in a full hockey gear. But like you later mentioned:

I created this thread trying to motivate to the people who dont read music or play to advance foward because im not more that you and you are not more than me but one thing is for sure, if you can feed youself you can play piano.

And this is indeed a really good point! It's actually quite a short step from just playing around to actually making music with ease. Hell, even couple piano/keyboard lessons with a good teacher wouldn't hurt. One month of intensive piano lessons is only around 80 euros or even less and you'll learn a lot (if the teacher is good, that is), not only in playing but also in music theory. So insted of thinking getting another FX unit or something other crap, invest the money in playing lessons. I guarantee that you won't regret it!

Is too much difference between I have something and I know use it, I saw guys make amazing thing with a $200 Casio, money can not buy talent or skills my friend.

One of the most funniest experiences was when I saw one pal to play Super Mario theme with the coin FX and all on a wintage 80's Casio home keyboard. It was awesome! Hoho. Great stuff indeed.

Money open the door for learn and if you have money and you dont learn is because you are lazy if is your case dont complain, just learn, is up to you, the embarrazment is yours.

Every one learns, more or less. It's just a matter of motivation. I think that if everyone who put >1000 euros on gear would also invest some in music lessons then we would have a hell lot of more interesting music around.

Originally Posted by IamEvil

Why don't you worry about your own music rather than bleeting on an internet forum about these "talentless" knob twiddling individuals with better equipment than you?

Hey, the point here is to stirr discussion and bring up a "forgotten" viewpoints. As I said, it's easy to get really started on music and expand the synth hobby from knob tweaking to actual fun and rewarding music making.

Originally Posted by spindlenine

I think it goes without saying that the proliferation of computer-based music tools and loop-based platforms has seriously lowered the barrier to entry for regular old people (like me) to make "music." On the whole, I think this is a Good Thing (TM), but it does mean that there will be a lot more people out there who are able to record unfathomable noise at the same fidelity that professional musicians enjoy and claim that it is music.

This is a good point. The threshold to acquiring decent studio is indeed lowered, but it has also deceived some people to think that it has also lowered the treshold of making music. Afterall machine is just a machine. Now here we can use the car analogy more efficiently: A car needs a driver.

But I'm certainly not judging; I have loads of pro-audio equipment I have collected over the years, and I have never even finished writing a single song. But after a long day at the office, I love coming home and twiddling knobs and making sounds. I may not be a fabulous musician or composer but I do know enough about synthesizers to enjoy what they let me do with sound, and I know enough about the piano to play melodies and tunes that allow me to enjoy the instruments.

And now I command you to take heed of my advice and take some of your freetime to go to few music lessons. Go and come back wiser than ever! There's nothing I could recommend you more.

Anecdotally, I actually got my TI because I always lose inspiration when the technology starts getting in the way of the music-making process (we've all been there...). The TI seems to integrate so seamlessly, which is awesome. I recently upgraded to Logic Express 8 as well, which has a much better UI than older versions, so I hope to find it less frustrating. This is sort of my "final stab" at making music a bit more serious of a hobby, so I'm hoping the tools have matured sufficiently to let me finally do that.

Technology. Ah, the sweet technology. That satan was the thing that crippled my creativity. When I was forced to work with almost zero technology, the golden ages of trackers, I made about one track a month. Sometimes even one trac a week! Then I got older and got some serious money to spend on gear and what happened... Three to four tracks a year, tops. And no, it wasn't better quality over quantity in terms of musicality in contrast to my previous tracker stuff. The technology just crippled my creativity. Just simple embarrassment of riches. I spend the most time doing useless shit like tweaking sounds and deciding what kind of FX i put there instead of putting the most effort in the music itself like in the old days. Technology can be your friend but it's also a dreadful enemy. Beware boys and girls.

Originally Posted by Ceri JC

Indeed, what would you say Squarepusher is when he alternating between playing his bass guitar and controlling a drum machine in time to someone else's record which he is playing on a turntable?

Just a wild guess: A musician because he's playing a bass?

Out of interest, where would you put turntabilists in the definition;

A good turntablism is art and, indeed, music. This is when you turn the turntable into a musical instrument. It's not always the tool used, it's about the way the tool is used.

It's like a sampler: You can play one loop from it and that's it. An instrument used to somethin that's not actually playing anything. It's like an inversion of that turntable question.

On a related note, the main reason I'm currently re-learning to play the violin is to finally record a version of a track I wrote a few years back (for 3 synthetic violin parts) on 'proper' electric violins, exactly as I want it. Would I bother if I had free access to 3 professional violinists I could communicate with effectively enough to get it exactly as I wanted? Probably not; I enjoy the 'production' side more and am better at it. Criticising people for this is akin to saying an architect is in some way inferior to a builder because the latter actually makes the building. I'd say they both play their part.

Playing is not the thing that makes a musician. A composer is also a musician. For example I do a lots of stuff that I would be ablo to actually play unless I'd intensively train for months. The whole idea in music is that it's versatile. You can play, you can compose, you can sing. There is no actual definition for musicality.

[waxahachie]

Nice number of copy/paste but what is you point Juho?
Music is a language dude, anyways I can see I dont motivate a shit so every one be happy doing whatever.
I quit from this post, dont have sence speak more.
Have fun.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by waxahachie

The answers here speak for each one how much knowledge have the people about music notation.

Hell with notation. What good is writing and reading if you don't know the language. Notation is a triviality in this case. It's a tool, not music itself.

And the big question : who cares? the answer is "you" because you are only one steep to be a real composer learning music and writing your creations like a professional and speak same language over the planet without need to memorize thousand of visual plays.

It's kinda paradoxal to first speak of importance of understanding of notation as a basis of music (in aggravatevily speaking) and then about universal language of music. Universal language of music is rythmic/melodic sound - Not the mice shit on paper. Hoho.

Originally Posted by teethofgold

discussion of the 70's is not relevant here. 80's electronic music was heavily sequenced (new order? erasure). 90's was the blossoming of electronic dance music... and now here we are... in a world where I have a sample sequencing program on my iphone.

Hey, it is relevant! Same shit, different decade, you know. The technology just have offered a new ways to "cheat" in good and bad. Like I mentioned in my last post, it's a double-edged sword. Technology is not an excuse for wiping out the principles and importance of music in terms of theory and playing.

regardless... I heartily defend my definition of electronic music as modern folk music... as not all electronic music is folk music... but some folk music is electronic... and it is folk by definition... not by style.

What we now need is your definition of folk music. As you know, for example Encyclopedia Britannica defines folk music this way: "type of traditional and generally rural music that originally was passed down through families and other small social groups."

Now we need to fit electronic music in that definition. It is possible to create folk music influenced electornic music, but electronic music being folk music? Nope. The problem is that folk music has even more deeper historical roots than classical music. It's very tightly bond to regional cultural heritages.

how long before electronic music parties become a "tradition"?

Really long. For example Finnish folk has its roots in over thousand years in the past. The folk of US is probably the only "new" folk, but it has most of its roots in Irish and British folk, so its not genuinely new either.

By the way what is this obsession with folk anyways? A some certain music being folk doesn't make it any better. It's just a way to differiate culturally and thus historically relevant music from others, just like rock as a genre defines rock music. Genres are there for making defining music easier. Messing the genres just cause confusion.

rock music is going to be classical in 200 years... no? ever heard the term "classic rock"? how do you think black sabbath would have felt about that term back in 75?

how about the term "classic rave"? I'm the one and only dominator!

Classical is classical and probably always will be. It's just all triviality. Let's not confuse people with mixing genre stuff in sake of mixing genres.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by waxahachie

Nice number of copy/paste but what is you point Juho?

Hoho. It could be a rather difficult to get anything sensible out from that "quote everything" dribble.

Let's see. I think I'll have to recap it myself too. Hoho.

Well, the point is that:

a) It's completely ok to scrabble synths and other stuff and just fool around with them. Expensive toys, but hey, it's not my money.
b) It's effortless to progress from fooling around with toys to making music with instruments.
c) It's useless to bicker and argue who's a musician and who's not. Although it can be philosophically challenging to come up with an exact definition of musicianship, it's simple to assume everyone that's actually creating music, regardless of methods, is a musician.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by waxahachie

Music is a language dude, anyways I can see I dont motivate a shit so every one be happy doing whatever.

We are not giving up because of flood of counter arguments, are we? Hey, a bit more persistency, mate. Good cause, hard battle.

I quit from this post, dont have sence speak more.
Have fun.

We just started here! The long journey of reasoning the goal of the motivation you're after.

[teethofgold]

the definition you provided for folk music is the one I agree with! what will people look back upon from our modern culture and view as "historically significant" music of the people?

the real point is that not all of these people are trying to be rock stars... much like folk musicians aren't trying to be successful... they are just playing the music because they love it. there is room for new traditions... give it time...

still... this discussion of "people can't play keyboards" is seriously flawed in that some of the best electronic music (in my opinion) is not even physically possible to play.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by teethofgold

the definition you provided for folk music is the one I agree with! what will people look back upon from our modern culture and view as "historically significant" music of the people?

the real point is that not all of these people are trying to be rock stars... much like folk musicians aren't trying to be successful... they are just playing the music because they love it. there is room for new traditions... give it time...

Folk has its roots in the roots of historic culture of the whole nation. That's the reason why electronic music cannot be, or even become, folk in the frames defined earlier. Well, to be exact, electronic music can become folk if you somehow manage to put up a completely new nation with its own cultural heritage includes electronic music, but that just seems utopistic.

still... this discussion of "people can't play keyboards" is seriously flawed in that some of the best electronic music (in my opinion) is not even physically possible to play.

Somehow the whole thread started to revolve around playing instead of general knowledge of basics of music. That's wrong way. Music and playing are different things. Playing is part of music, but not music itself.

Sure thing composer can be lousy player. For example I am a crappy player, but it doesn't prevent me from composing. Although complete lack of knowledge of theory of music and the basic concepts would seriously hinder my composing, or even making it completely impossible. You couldn't play or compose without knowing the basics and theory of music. So in conclusion music is theory and basics. There is no language without grammar. Now this is the point I'm after!