drunken virus and rubbish m-audio tech support

[Wandering Kid]

i sent this to m-audio regarding a MIDI sync problem that i believe concerned my delta 1010 and under high cpu loads made my virus play back drunkenly:

M-Audio Technical Support Ticket - 2004-12-15 21:35:23

Date / Time:
Name: Anthony Barnard
E-Mail: anthonyb@eml.cc
Phone: xxxxxxxxxx

Country of purchase: US

Manufacturer: Sony
Model: VAIO PCV RX-201
Desktop/Laptop: Desktop
Mobo/Chipset: ASUS P4B266-LM
Processor: Intel Pentium 4
Speed: 1.6 ghz
RAM: 512 mb
Graphics Card: Sapphire ATI Radeon 9600 PRO
OS:Windows XP
Service Packs: SP1 & SP2

Device: Delta 1010
Other M-Audio products used: only the delta 1010
Have latest driver?: yes.
Driver Version: 5.10.00.0048a

Software involved: MIDI syncing external devices
Other MIDI devices : Access Virus B Desktop
Other Audio Devices: intel integrated 82801BA/BAM AC\'97 Audio Controller v5.1.2535.0

When did problem start : since i got the virus about 2 weeks ago
Upgrades: nope.

Problem:

this problem only started because i got my first hardware synth (access virus b). prior to that i was not using the midi in or the midi out on the delta so i was not aware of any problems with midi. i use fl studio 4.5.1 and have MIDI master sync enabled. MIDI out of the delta goes to the MIDI in on the virus. MIDI out on the virus goes to MIDI in on the delta (although i dont use the virus as a controller, this connection is probably not necessary). the 1st stereo analogue output on the virus (labeled L/Phones R/Mono) is connected to the 1st and 2nd input of the delta via 2 x 1/4 inch TRS to TRS unbalanced cables. the 1st and 2nd analogue outs on the delta are connected straight into my Aiwa Hifi using 2 1/4 inch TRS to RCA phono cables. the buttons on the back of the delta are left in their \'out\' position (-10 dB since this system is totally unbalanced). put simply, the virus does not sync to my host very well. firstly there is latency associated with the playback of the virus. every note that is triggered via midi is delayed very slightly. i verified this by importing recorded audio from the virus (with no external effects on it) into soundforge where there is a brief gap at the start indicating a lag time before the note is triggered. oddly, this is not complete silence though because it is not a flat line. (i also notice that the audio output of th virus is not particularly loud and distorts in playback occassionally when fl studio\'s mixer is set to receive audio via the delta\'s 1st and 2nd inputs although i put this down to the fact that i am not using a preamp in this setup. please confirm if this is the case. i was also under the impression that the virus had its own preamp because you can plug devices like microphones into the analogue in on the virus and use the vocoder straight away.) the more multi timbral parts i play from the virus simultaneously the more out of sync and disorganised the virus is in playback. if CPU load is high (above 50 to 60%) the virus wil also begin to play back \'drunkenly,\' very disorganised with some notes triggering for the incorrect length of time or not at all and out of time. it sounds very choppy and coupled with multiple parts playing from the virus simultaneously + high CPU load it becomes impossible to monitor accurately. under normal to low cpu loads and using single mode on the virus, playing back sound will trigger the MIDI out light on the delta to flash. this flashes on and off rapidly when the delta is sending MIDI data to the virus. under higher CPU loads, this flashing is more erratic, and not as constant and this seems to correspond with the erratic playback on the virus. moving the mouse around on the screen rapidly while the virus is playing back (which consumes CPU cycles) also makes this happen, particularly under high CPU load where the stuttering is much worse. is there a particular reason for why this happens? i have the latest delta 1010 driver. i have contacted access\'s technical support with regard to this issue. the virus is configured, as far as they can tell correctly. i get the constant c symbol on the virus when it receives MIDI in although, like the MIDI out light on the delta, it flickers under high loads and when i move the mouse on the screen and it is playing back through the correct global MIDI channel because there is a little black musical note on the virus which signifies this. i am using the m-audio ASIO driver in fl studio. in the delta control center, under the hardware settings tab, i have set the master clock to \'Internal Xtal.\' codec sample rate is 44,100 hz. DMA buffer size is 512 samples, although i can increase this to the maximum 2048 samples or the minimum 64 samples and the problem still manifests itself. MutliTrack Driver Device in the hardware settings tab is set to \'Single and In-Sync\' this problem is making it very difficult to use the virus and i have spent the past 2 weeks trying to narrow the problem down. i think the problem is with the delta, in particular the ASIO drivers, the way FL Studio manages MIDI in/out or perhaps a combination of 2 or all of the above under high cpu strain. however, playing several multimode parts from the virus on 0 cpu load also produces this drunken effect so it may not be related exclusively to CPU. thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide with regards to this matter.

this was the response:

'Anthony


There could be several reasons for this type of problem, and there has been a known problem with many MIDI interfaces if you are using Cubase SX as your host application, however a call to our tech support department should ensure a quick solution.

They're available in the USA on 626 633 9055

Regards

Richard
UK Tech Support
M Audio - Midiman Ltd
www.m-audio.com'

the fact that he says 'if you are using cubase SX' made me believe that he didnt actually read my problem at all the international phone charge associated with that number they supply is scary. if i cant find any other solution to this problem i guess ill have to try it.

i thought initially it may be the virus but i really dont think it is. i get the C symbol constantly. im playing through the correct midi channel i have master sync forced in my host and just to make sure i can even set the tempo on the virus to exactly the same as my host - it still fucks up. i contacted access about this too. they actually read my email but unfortunately their response was basically - have you checked the C symbol is present? anyone else have a problem like this?

[ten]

You gotta admit, you wrote a ton of shit....I couldnt be arsed to read it all.....no paragraphs or anything, makes me giddy

ten

[jasedee]

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

the fact that he says 'if you are using cubase SX' made me believe that he didnt actually read my problem at all

Umm....So you're not using SX?

I think your problem is with FL.......either that or your MIDI interface

[Wandering Kid]

i have never used cubase SX. nowhere in my email did i specify that i used cubase SX. in fact a specifically said i used fl studio. even if my problem wasnt solved i would not have been so annoyed had it not been for the fact i got blatently fobbed off. as for the problem being either with fl studio and/or my midi interface - i deduced that much on my own - thats why i contacted m-audio.

as for my email being long. i gave them every tiny bit of information that i possibly could including my own findings so that maybe they could shed some light on why this problem occurs. their telephone tech support was useless - was on hold on an international phone call for 3 minutes then i outlined the problem i had but of course, couldnt explain it in as much as detail as i could in email, consequently wasted more time filling in the person on the end of the line with info that id already explained in more detail to some other m-audio technician. this phone call had bloated to about 10 minutes and was costing me more than 5 quid by the time i got a firm answer. the advice i was given? you may want to check that your host is sending MIDI clock data.

no fucking shit sherlock. this conversation was clearly going around in circles so i hung up.

i dont think i would have been so annoyed if m-audio's tech support team didnt treat me like a fucking idiot. im deliberating whether to contact them or access again. i seriously dont think the problem is with the virus but...im beginning to think about just selling this 1010 on and looking for another 10 in/10 out midi interface. this time one that actually has a preamp on it. i wont get the price i paid for it despite it being only 4 months old and in immaculate condition. but this problem coupled with the fact that m-audio's ASIO drivers repeatedly crash my PC hard - it just seems more trouble than its worth. i cant afford a presonus firepod yet though.

[jake_syd]

The fact that your PC is crashing should be telling you something straight away!!!

I suggest you visit the UMPTEEN websites like MUSICXP and learn about running Music Hardware on PC's!! It sounds to me quite obvious that its a Problem with your system if your PC is crashing and not a Problem with your M-Audio Hardware. M-Audio are known for very good products and great drivers, I think its YOUR setup. It sounds like you need to educate yourself a bit more in the way of using your PC and not be so QUICK to rat on M-Audio, when you yourself couldn't even be bothered to add paragraphs and formatting to your email to them.

1) You don't need a pre-amp with your VIRUS it outputs line level signals. You can adjust the +4, 0, -11db amounts in the mixer app.

2) unplug the Midi-OUT of your Virus, you don't need it, you maybe creating a MIDI loop, test it, without and see if it still happens. I think there is a option on my Virus to send all incomming data back out the output, you would want to disable this!!!

3) Run your PC in 'STANDARD PC Mode' much better for Audio Work

4) Disable any other Audio Devices in the System Devices of your Control Pannel, including any other MIDI devices which may be fighting for System resources on your BUS.

5) Download a different Music App, that is MIDI compatible, Tracktion for example, see how it responds to MIDI, this will tell you if perhaps FRUITY LOOPS is the culprit.. (I think its not, but you need to elliminate it from the equasion)

6) Pick up a USB 2x2 midi Interface, very effective and cheap too!!!!

[jasedee]

Originally Posted by jake_syd

when you yourself couldn't even be bothered to add paragraphs and formatting to your email to them.

Easy Tiger.....

Sounds like we have an M-Audio fan here........

[Wandering Kid]

ok jake_syd. points noted. although you didnt have to be such a jerk in replying.

i would like to detail my ASIO problem a little bit more here since i didnt make it absolutely clear why i think the ASIO drivers are the problem. if i use delta 1010 multi out drivers i get no problems whatsoever but i have to use very high latencies b/c my CPU is not that fast and really grinds after a few plugins are added. switching to ASIO changes the sound (i dont know why but it is noticeably much louder and sounds more echoey, this really threw me off when i programmed patches on the virus using the ASIO drivers then switched to the multi out when CPU load got high enough for my PC to start crashing). but the main point of this is that using ASIO i can get 1ms latency. so i use this up until i get into the 80% region. when i start getting into this CPU load range, pressing play in fl studio causes my PC to start grinding and my mouse becomes choppy and difficult to control. if i can quickly move the mouse over to the stop button and quickly click it, i can save it from locking up completely, otherwise it locks up and i can hear my song looping incorrectly in this loud out of sync mess. switching to multi out drivers eliminates this problem. switching to the default drivers eliminates this problem. reverting to my integrated sound card eliminates this problem. however i feel i have to use those ASIO drivers because i cannot play keyboard with 100 ms+ latency.

i think its fair to assume that given this, it would not be too illogical to assume that the ASIO drivers do not like my PC at high CPU loads since all the other driver options are cool with it. how can it be a fault with my PC if i can use the delta's multi out drivers and it doesnt lock up?

i know i dont need a preamp. however, my virus does not go very loud and it distorts when i max it out. and to top it off, changing the input source in fl studio's mixer from 'none' to 'delta 1010 analogue in 1/2' changes the sound of the virus playing back, quite drastically. ive removed the midi out from the virus to the midi in on the delta. nothing changes.

pardon me but why do you recommend i pick up a 2 in/2 out USB midi interface? you mean like motu fastlane? i have a wordclock in/out on my delta. i know what wordclock does, but if at some point i plan on replacing my delta, some of the options i considered do not have wordclock. would a midi interface function in a similar capacity? basically send fixed midi clock to all devices so it reduces possible sync errors?

me not adding parapgraphs and formatting to my email has nothing to do with me having to 'educate' myself in the ways of using my PC, except that you can put both in the same sentence for a cheap shot at me. whatever. whether you acknowledge it or not, PCs crash. even the best of em and even the well maintained ones and sometimes, yes! its partly to do with the way they interact with software or external hardware through their drivers. googling 'm-audio delta 1010' or 'm-audio delta 1010 ASIO +problem' returns hundreds of sale sites and review sites. im sorry i couldnt find musicxp you know, i guess i must just a newbie - feel bigger now?

the forums i did find pointed to lots of problems with firewire 410 drivers. couldnt find much on the delta except someone on kvr had a similar problem to me with a 1010 but the thread had zero replies. oh well.

[HOOJ]

From personal experience, FL Studio just plain sucks in terms of keeping the MIDI clock... I've had the same problem. You can partially solve it if you assign the FL process Realtime status in the task manager, but in any case, you're better off with Cubase for recording the Virus tracks.

[AjmaGard]

Have you done a test without running any VST tracks and only sending midi?

Sorry, I gave up trying to read through your post

And, have you tried using a "real" sequencer instead of FL (no offence, but FL isn't really that good at external hardware).

[Wandering Kid]

i havent tried recording with another sequencer - i cant afford cubase - its not even an option.

with 0 VSTs running with all unnecessary startup processes disabled i can usually record single patches and it wont fuck up too bad. i still get an annoying static burst at the start of each recording as a result of my ASIO drivers not liking the CPU intense reverb i like to use (SIR). if i keep it under 10% CPU load i can usually monitor at less than 5ms latency and record without any hitches. but the output is fairly quiet compared to the volume i can get out my VST synths without clipping.

above 20% load i start to get choppiness and static. above 50% load - no chance.