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  #21  
Old 08.05.2014, 08:36 PM
TweakHead TweakHead is offline
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I fail to see how him being able to play the piano or not is relevant. He's clearly able to both compose and produce his music, and his music does actually show that he knows his music theory...

A musician isn't just someone who can perform with an instrument. Many times the best performers are not good writers and the other way around. With Electronic Music it's always more about composition then live performance, and people are praised for what they can do within the realm of sound and music (yes, the two combined) rather then just for their clever usage of scales and harmonies, or their keyboard playing skills. Isn't that so? I'm sorry to say I don't see much of a point. A producer is someone who can put things together, but doesn't necessarily have the creativity to come up with something on his own. That's what a producer is. This isn't the case. He's a musician, a producer, he also does all the engineering involved in his music from mixing to mastering. He's the whole deal. He knows audio and music inside out, like those behind all successful Electronic Music acts do. That's what it takes. If you ask me, I think most of this guys, even when they're kids making annoying music that just happens to be what's currently driving people nuts in clubs and outdoor festivals, are much more proficient about what they do then previous generations of musicians, where some of them couldn't compose a song on their own, can't perform or understand the other instruments that were part of the band, couldn't produce, mix and master their own music without hiring professionals to do it for them; so in a way, they were less educated and needed much more assistance to produce their music then Skrillex (or any such acts) - even the Doors.
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  #22  
Old 08.05.2014, 09:10 PM
MBTC MBTC is offline
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Originally Posted by TweakHead View Post
I fail to see how him being able to play the piano or not is relevant. He's clearly able to both compose and produce his music, and his music does actually show that he knows his music theory...

A musician isn't just someone who can perform with an instrument. Many times the best performers are not good writers and the other way around. With Electronic Music it's always more about composition then live performance, and people are praised for what they can do within the realm of sound and music (yes, the two combined) rather then just for their clever usage of scales and harmonies, or their keyboard playing skills. Isn't that so? I'm sorry to say I don't see much of a point. A producer is someone who can put things together, but doesn't necessarily have the creativity to come up with something on his own. That's what a producer is. This isn't the case. He's a musician, a producer, he also does all the engineering involved in his music from mixing to mastering. He's the whole deal. He knows audio and music inside out, like those behind all successful Electronic Music acts do. That's what it takes. If you ask me, I think most of this guys, even when they're kids making annoying music that just happens to be what's currently driving people nuts in clubs and outdoor festivals, are much more proficient about what they do then previous generations of musicians, where some of them couldn't compose a song on their own, can't perform or understand the other instruments that were part of the band, couldn't produce, mix and master their own music without hiring professionals to do it for them; so in a way, they were less educated and needed much more assistance to produce their music then Skrillex (or any such acts) - even the Doors.
Opinion heard, though I still have my own. I do agree that a lot of the musicians of days gone by were far more focused on the playing/writing/musical side of the process and did not have the technical skills to mix/produce/etc, so yes we are to some degree seeing a merging of skill sets, more jacks of all trades yet masters of none types.

Not too long ago I had the pleasure of seeing The Eagles in concert. I'd like someone to show me a band that has come about in the last 10 or 20 years that are even in their league. These nearly 70 year old guys got on stage and lit up their instruments like most of the newer generation of kiddies will only be able to dream about. This is why tickets near the stage cost $1000 a piece. When someone shows me $1000 tickets for a Skrillex concert being sold, or even the types of record sales they've had, then I will believe he's in the same league. Until then some can only dream...

As always, not trying to tell anyone they should think like me or even agree.
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  #23  
Old 08.05.2014, 09:24 PM
MBTC MBTC is offline
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Whenever someone has to "set out to prove" that an artists music is actually music, it is often an indication of some sort of issue that leans greatly in favor of what I've been saying here.

Nobody ever needed to even SUGGEST setting out to "prove" that Depeche Mode or Kraftwerk were making music. The notion is laughable. That folks are trying to prove it here says even more.

http://www.laweekly.com/westcoastsou...actually-music

LOL! He even asked her if she could play his stuff on the piano. Maybe he wanted to sign up for lessons?
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  #24  
Old 09.05.2014, 12:18 AM
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Don't waste your energy Tweak - my many, many valid points that were on topic were completely ignored (see: list of famous composers who did not play, links to scores, links to arrangements etc).

As i stated originally, I believe that MBTC has a very shallow and flawed definition of what music composition is. That's not a personal attack - just evidenced in what you've written across this thread and the fact that multiple posters have rebutted your points raised.

Some study might expand your perceptions and understanding - which is why I added links to some topics that could have helped. Few good books that could help you, Audio Culture (Readings in Modern Music), Electronic and Experimental Music, The Rest is Noise.
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Lilt (electronic/vocal project) - www.soundcloud.com/lilt-aus

feedingear (experimental, video and film game scoring, dance, artist interviews) www.soundcloud.com/feedingear

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http://www.soundfieldstudio.com/

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  #25  
Old 09.05.2014, 12:32 PM
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@MBTC

the value of tickets, how much they sell, along with sales records and all of that can hardly constitute any argument as to what's good and what's not. we're living very different times now, there's a lot more people doing music so the crowds are more distributed among artists and few of them get out-of-this-world kind of audiences.

but even if this was the case, you'll have a hard time finding any artist living today who's more busy then Skrillex, as far as gigs go. the guy simply doesn't stop to rest, he's played everywhere and on all major avenues and all over the world. he's also featured heavily all over the radio and other distribution medium - and that's why some people today regard him as a poster guy. he manages to make some music while touring with just a laptop and a headphones set. this is something that's produced to a very high standard of quality, that translates well in the best sound systems available today, such as Funktion One.

it kind of surprises me to read your opinions, dude. you do enjoy electronic instruments, synthesizers and all of that. taste aside, I really can't see how his level of proficiency in music is debatable at all. he's got a very good sense of composition, he knows how to play with the crowd's expectations, contrasting mellow melodic parts with very intensive and aggressive ones and he never fails to deliver on all accounts: be it drum sounds and patterns, even the sound design of them is amazing; the sound design in all the instrumentation involved, the level of skills involved in the production, so forth and so on. how come is this even debatable, without walking into the highly subjective and ambiguous dimensions of taste and personal preferences?

are you really engaging in the old is better then new kind of argument? 'cause that's a very old one and it's happened to the artists you mention as well, back in the day. I think access to instruments and technology in general has enabled much more people to express themselves and that's a good thing. as I've said previously, on that level - and by this I mean, when you get to play to big crowds and manage a big gig schedule - there's hardly anyone lacking knowledge of music theory, composition, production techniques or whatever you can think off.

besides, electronic music is not just about listening, certainly not just about notes and scales and harmonies to. it's also about sound textures, rhythm, bass frequencies that collide with your chest, that you can feel as much as you listen - and that's what makes the crowds move together in unison, that's the driving force behind all this "bass music" thing. if you pick synthesizer sound design alone, you'd have a hard time explaining to me (or anyone) how Skrillex would fall short compared to any - AND I MEAN ANY - act available today or in the past. This isn't true just for Skrillex, it's true for a lot of people.

>I'm just contributing to the debate<
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  #26  
Old 09.05.2014, 03:47 PM
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Welcome back, what a mess. I like sorting out pissy little arguments between two grown men about as much as seeing Oscar Pistorius' annoying little phizog continually pop up in the news.

It's a shame as the thread otherwise has a lot of good debate and expression, but these posts are equally intertwined with the dross, making it both repulsive for other respectable users and my life harder.

Both of you should know better, I've spoken to you both in private. I've no option but to give you both time out for one week. Any continuations after that may well be considerably longer. I'd hate to do that, as I like you both and feel you both have given enormous positive contributions, but this forum and its users should be respected.

The irony is that, even though very different, both your arguments are equally valid and correct in your own personal ideals. There's no need to attack someone else's. In fact, the exchange of ideas of what music is is actually beneficial in broadening your own minds and trying something different.

I think music has a different definition for every person out there. It's not anything, per se, that follows a strict set of rules. The ear is in the beholder. The line between what is sound (which is definable by science), and what is music (which largely isn't), is entirely subjective. One man's music is another man's noise. There's no specific formula.

Going off on a tangent, I remember travelling down to London one time on the Duchess of Sutherland (not a posh harlot, unfortunately, but a steam locomotive, all 200 tons of it, plus the carriages), and I'm no train geek but there was one specific period where the train was travelling at full tilt (beyond the legal speed limit according to a nerd who has his head stuck out the window), and for a minute, all the sounds that the train made - the rhythm from the steam locomotive itself (á la Skylined by the Prodigy), along with a certain part of the railtrack making the 'clickety clack', and a whole lot more besides, ghost hits, carriage noise, reverberation and decay, etc. - everything just suddenly blended together and formed the most amazing, deeply embodying and intricate rhythms I have ever heard. If only I had had a recorder! D'oh.

The mosaic of what would otherwise be classed as noises came together to blend into something much greater than its parts (you may say this of dubstep). Of course you couldn't ever expect to play it with a piano, it was percussive than instrumental, but for me, it was music right there.

That said, I even found music in the absolutely cacophonous racket that an MRI scanner screamed into my ears on various occasions whilst having scans of the head (they're still searching for my brain, if found please take it to the nearest lost property for collection). The noises an MRI scanner belts out actually sounds not unlike progressive dubstep, but exceedingly brutal, and makes dubstep itself sound like a timid musical box.

If pushed to describe music, then entirely subjectively I'd suggest recognisable tones (even if nonharmonic, to an extent), recognising repeatable structure (loops, or variations of), and timing (rhythm) - possibly followed by harmonic structure and melody a close second - could play a large-ish part in attempting to encapsulate the term.

I think if you unexpectedly enjoy listening to a certain sound - be it birds chirruping, or even the MRI scanner screaming out nonharmonic, unnatural but rhythmic noises - and the sounds have some form of structure, then that effectively can be music (for you).

Then again, some music is entirely organic and fluid, without any discernable repetition yet have recognisable tone(s) structure. Think avant garde artists, Brian Eno, et al.

Is someone who plays the digeridoo a musician?

I don't think the method of composition has any bearing on whether the result is 'music'. If the end result is (perceived by many as) music, and you made it all yourself, then surely that's all that matters, regardless how you got there? Like someone else mentioned earlier, people who initially used sampling were thought of as non musicians. Then it was embraced, and used by nearly everyone.

With Skrillex (seeing as others enjoy continually referring to him on Infekted ), I guess it also comes to that old comparison (second only to 'PC vs Mac'): is a DJ a musician? I think Skrillex is a blend of the two. His songs are very, very musical in many ways, and he clearly knows what music is and is heavily passionate about it (as are his many fans), so even though his tools may not necessarily involve a piano, I feel he's no less of a musician.

And given his success, who's doing it wrong - him or us?
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  #27  
Old 09.05.2014, 04:15 PM
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Quite interesting, from several standpoints and different musical backgrounds.
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  #28  
Old 09.05.2014, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timo View Post
Welcome back, what a mess. I like sorting out pissy little arguments between two grown men about as much as seeing Oscar Pistorius' annoying little phizog continually pop up in the news.

It's a shame as the thread otherwise has a lot of good debate and expression, but these posts are equally intertwined with the dross, making it both repulsive for other respectable users and my life harder.

Both of you should know better, I've spoken to you both in private. I've no option but to give you both time out for one week. Any continuations after that may well be considerably longer. I'd hate to do that, as I like you both and feel you both have given enormous positive contributions, but this forum and its users should be respected.

The irony is that, even though very different, both your arguments are equally valid and correct in your own personal ideals. There's no need to attack someone else's. In fact, the exchange of ideas of what music is is actually beneficial in broadening your own minds and trying something different.

I think music has a different definition for every person out there. It's not anything, per se, that follows a strict set of rules. The ear is in the beholder. The line between what is sound (which is definable by science), and what is music (which largely isn't), is entirely subjective. One man's music is another man's noise. There's no specific formula.

Going off on a tangent, I remember travelling down to London one time on the Duchess of Sutherland (not a posh harlot, unfortunately, but a steam locomotive, all 200 tons of it, plus the carriages), and I'm no train geek but there was one specific period where the train was travelling at full tilt (beyond the legal speed limit according to a nerd who has his head stuck out the window), and for a minute, all the sounds that the train made - the rhythm from the steam locomotive itself (á la Skylined by the Prodigy), along with a certain part of the railtrack making the 'clickety clack', and a whole lot more besides, ghost hits, carriage noise, reverberation and decay, etc. - everything just suddenly blended together and formed the most amazing, deeply embodying and intricate rhythms I have ever heard. If only I had had a recorder! D'oh.

The mosaic of what would otherwise be classed as noises came together to blend into something much greater than its parts (you may say this of dubstep). Of course you couldn't ever expect to play it with a piano, it was percussive than instrumental, but for me, it was music right there.

That said, I even found music in the absolutely cacophonous racket that an MRI scanner screamed into my ears on various occasions whilst having scans of the head (they're still searching for my brain, if found please take it to the nearest lost property for collection). The noises an MRI scanner belts out actually sounds not unlike progressive dubstep, but exceedingly brutal, and makes dubstep itself sound like a timid musical box.

If pushed to describe music, then entirely subjectively I'd suggest recognisable tones (even if nonharmonic, to an extent), recognising repeatable structure (loops, or variations of), and timing (rhythm) - possibly followed by harmonic structure and melody a close second - could play a large-ish part in attempting to encapsulate the term.

I think if you unexpectedly enjoy listening to a certain sound - be it birds chirruping, or even the MRI scanner screaming out nonharmonic, unnatural but rhythmic noises - and the sounds have some form of structure, then that effectively can be music (for you).

Then again, some music is entirely organic and fluid, without any discernable repetition yet have recognisable tone(s) structure. Think avant garde artists, Brian Eno, et al.

Is someone who plays the digeridoo a musician?

I don't think the method of composition has any bearing on whether the result is 'music'. If the end result is (perceived by many as) music, and you made it all yourself, then surely that's all that matters, regardless how you got there? Like someone else mentioned earlier, people who initially used sampling were thought of as non musicians. Then it was embraced, and used by nearly everyone.

With Skrillex (seeing as others enjoy continually referring to him on Infekted ), I guess it also comes to that old comparison (second only to 'PC vs Mac'): is a DJ a musician? I think Skrillex is a blend of the two. His songs are very, very musical in many ways, and he clearly knows what music is and is heavily passionate about it (as are his many fans), so even though his tools may not necessarily involve a piano, I feel he's no less of a musician.

And given his success, who's doing it wrong - him or us?
Well put my friend & should make sense to even the most prejudiced musician & lets face it in no other art form is there more of it than in music. Do you know how long it took the orchestra's of the day to accept the saxophone when it was first invented? A really long time Lol & now you can't imagine Jazz without it. The early Jazz bands hated singers at first, total purist's but found out they could make more money if they had a hot mama up front And so on & so forth...but really, there is no room for bigotry in creativity. If someone wants to make music with rubber band's so what??? Then when you find out that the 'elastic' sound is the latest craze and he's doing sell out dates all over the country & has a million followers on Soundcloud don't get yourself all twisted out of shape just because you didn't think of it yourself Peace!
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  #29  
Old 17.05.2014, 12:54 PM
MBTC MBTC is offline
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Originally Posted by Timo View Post
Both of you should know better, I've spoken to you both in private. I've no option but to give you both time out for one week. Any continuations after that may well be considerably longer. I'd hate to do that, as I like you both and feel you both have given enormous positive contributions, but this forum and its users should be respected.
First, thank you for the ban! (and no, that's not sarcasm), because something needed to be done. Even prior to the ban, I of course already committed to ignoring the issue going forward (and just as I kept a commitment I made to you a few months back privately regarding a completely different subject that I've honored, I'm sure you realize I will honor this one as well), so in that sense the effect is redundant, but the reasons behind it are well-appreciated.

I did think it was funny that all of this came about from a thread that was going on a year old. I just wish we'd gotten ourselves banned much sooner! Things could have been so much quieter around here
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