Questions about detuning...

[Remedial]

Okay, some from my reading of the manual and it appears to me that the detune knob is the only option for some form of fine detuning. Now, is that knob gradated in cents? There's no mention of this in the manual. Next, although the detune knob can be used in reference to oscillator 3, said oscillator also has a detune menu in the oscillator menu options. Now, does this mean that, when using the detune knob on oscillator 3, you are detuning it in reference to oscillator 2 but when you use the menu screen you are detuning in reference to oscillator 1 (which the manual does say)? Now, also, because the detune knob does not present negative values, I'm guessing there's no negative detuning. Or, is it one of those knobs where at 64 and over you cross over to positive detuning but everything beneath that is negative? Please help me with this. The manual is a little confusing with these matters and I would love some clarification. Thanks beforehand.

[Timo]

Osc 1 stays static (can't fine detune without modulation matrix being used).

Osc 2's maximum detune lies, oddly, within a range of +43 to +80 cents depending on the frequency of the note played. When fine-detune is maxxed (Osc 2 detune value = 127), low frequencies (subs) notes are detuned by +80cents, mid notes +50cents, while higher notes are in the mid +40's.

Let's just say a fine-detuning value of 127 pitches up the oscillator by an average of +50 cents (half a tone).

Osc 3, is the same as Osc 2, but detunes in the negative direction with respect to Osc 1. Therefore it will pitch down a maximum of -50cents (on average).

When Osc3 is set as a Slave to Osc2, Osc3 uses the same detuning as Osc2 but again the detuning is negative instead of positive. So if Osc 2 has a fine-detune value of 64, which is approx +10cents with respect to Osc1, Osc 3 will automatically be detuned equally in the opposite way, which will be -10cents with respect to Osc1.

Osc 2 and Osc 3 will always be on opposing sides of Osc 1. (Unless you modulate Osc 2 or 3 individually using mod matrix).

In general, detuning is also not linear, but curved (logarithmic). At a middle detune value of 64, notes are only pitched up by +10 cents, which means that Osc 2&3 fine-detune values of 0-64 are extremely fine. The rest (65-127) are increasingly steeper, and make up the rest of the full detune range.

The Sub-Osc is static at -1octave to Osc1. If you change the semitone detune of Osc1, this will also affect the Sub Osc by the same amount.

PS > If you want accurate measurements of notes using an external tuner, PureTuning needs to be set to Pure, otherwise the Virus oscillator emulates random analogue pitch instability +/- 4cents each time a key is pressed.

[thomas]

Wauw thanks timo, didn't know all that

[Remedial]

Originally Posted by Timo

Osc 1 stays static (can't fine detune without modulation matrix being used).

Osc 2's maximum detune lies, oddly, within a range of +43 to +80 cents depending on the frequency of the note played. When fine-detune is maxxed (Osc 2 detune value = 127), low frequencies (subs) notes are detuned by +80cents, mid notes +50cents, while higher notes are in the mid +40's.

Let's just say a fine-detuning value of 127 pitches up the oscillator by an average of +50 cents (half a tone).

Osc 3, is the same as Osc 2, but detunes in the negative direction with respect to Osc 1. Therefore it will pitch down a maximum of -50cents (on average).

When Osc3 is set as a Slave to Osc2, Osc3 uses the same detuning as Osc2 but again the detuning is negative instead of positive. So if Osc 2 has a fine-detune value of 64, which is approx +10cents with respect to Osc1, Osc 3 will automatically be detuned equally in the opposite way, which will be -10cents with respect to Osc1.

Osc 2 and Osc 3 will always be on opposing sides of Osc 1. (Unless you modulate Osc 2 or 3 individually using mod matrix).

In general, detuning is also not linear, but curved (logarithmic). At a middle detune value of 64, notes are only pitched up by +10 cents, which means that Osc 2&3 fine-detune values of 0-64 are extremely fine. The rest (65-127) are increasingly steeper, and make up the rest of the full detune range.

The Sub-Osc is static at -1octave to Osc1. If you change the semitone detune of Osc1, this will also affect the Sub Osc by the same amount.

PS > If you want accurate measurements of notes using an external tuner, PureTuning needs to be set to Pure, otherwise the Virus oscillator emulates random analogue pitch instability +/- 4cents each time a key is pressed.

Damn. Thanks for all of this. The reason I asked my original question was because I was trying to complete a patch programming tutorial that asked for oscillator 1 to be at -5 cents and oscillator 2 at +5. Guess that's impossible with the Virus. The operation of the detune knob seems to be counterintuitive or was an afterthought to Access, at the best. You said that osc 1 is static unless using the modulation matrix. Would there be a way to set it to -5 cents using some source within the mod matrix? And, I must ask, how'd you get all this information? Was this just experimentation on your end? If so, thanks for undertaking that headache to the benefit of the rest of us. I must say this is EXACTLY the way it should have been written in the manual.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by Remedial

And, I must ask, how'd you get all this information? Was this just experimentation on your end? If so, thanks for undertaking that headache to the benefit of the rest of us.

Pure experimentation on my part. I replicated a couple of parameters of patches from the Virus onto another synth a while back, with them both in front of me at the same time. Obviously you can't just copy the values of settings down as they wouldn't translate correctly, so it required a type of deconstructing and calibrating method instead, and it was an interesting exercise to see how the Virus' inner engine worked.

I actually really like the way the Virus fine-detune is logarithmic. It becomes more fine and detailed the closer you get to zero, allowing for some really subtle, slow detuning effects which don't sound digital. The trade off is that the detune values don't follow a strict numerical, linear scale for obtaining exact specific detuning in cents.

I used two software tuners to take measurements (one to back up the other). Amplitube (guitar sim), and Wavelab.

The reason I asked my original question was because I was trying to complete a patch programming tutorial that asked for oscillator 1 to be at -5 cents and oscillator 2 at +5. Guess that's impossible with the Virus.

You can get the same result a number of ways. The easiest is simply finding the pitch difference you want, in this case you have -5cents and +5cents which is simply a difference of 10cents in total. Therefore if you pitch Osc 2 up by 10 cents, and then mix Osc 1 back, in you'll get a nearly identical result. If you isolate Osc2 on its own (by turning Osc Bal fully clockwise) you can use a tuner to see how far you need to detune Osc 2 upwards to get 10cents, and then add Osc 1 back in (by turning Osc Bal to the centre position). Admittedly you need a tuner, though.

Another messier method might be to use a static modulation source to pitch Osc1 down by 5cents, such as using LFO1 set to the Pulse waveform with the LFO Contour set to maximum (to make the Pulse waveform "on" all the time) and then use the LFO Osc1 Amount to detune Osc1 to whatever value you need in order to get -5cents (again, a tuner needed).

Or if you fancy eating up 33% extra polyphony for no reason at all, you can ignore Osc1 entirely (by turning Osc Bal fully clockwise) and use Osc 2 with Osc 3 in Slave mode. Using a tuner on just Osc2 again, a detune value of 36 gave me +5cents. When Osc3 is added in Slave mode, it will also detune negatively from Osc1 by the same amount.

Admittedly whatever you do, you will need a tuner to achieve accurate detunes directly in cents. Maybe I might map the fine-detune knob out in cents on a table at some point.

Another unintended long-winded post on the minutiae of the Virus! Hope it's legible. Time for a beer.

[thomas]

Can't you fine tune the entire patch -5cents in the common page and then tune osc2 up by 10 cents?

[Timo]

Originally Posted by thomas

Can't you fine tune the entire patch -5cents in the common page and then tune osc2 up by 10 cents?

Is that a feature on the TI? I have an Indigo, and don't see that option.

[Remedial]

Originally Posted by Timo

whatever you do, you will need a tuner to achieve accurate detunes directly in cents. Maybe I might map the fine-detune knob out in cents on a table at some point.

Another unintended long-winded post on the minutiae of the Virus! Hope it's legible. Time for a beer.

Would be great if you did, but, it's a shame that it even has to be done by a user. This is the kind of thing that should have been included in a table within the manual. But, I'm preaching to the choir at this point. Thanks for all of your help. P.S. Wish that they allowed detune on Oscillator 1, but, the OS hasn't be upgraded in forever, so that's probably never going to happen. Maybe somewhere down the road someone will create a homebrew OS like the Typhoon for TX16W. But, that's just wishful thinking. Thanks again. Thanks again.

[thomas]

Originally Posted by Timo

Is that a feature on the TI? I have an Indigo, and don't see that option.

Yes, you can detune every part separatly on the common page in VC.
It's next to the transpose function. Also nice that if you load a new patch it stay's detuned by the given amount.

[Timo]

but, the OS hasn't be upgraded in forever, so that's probably never going to happen.

Access are very active in updating OSs, they do update the TI regularly, mainly with bug fixes, but an alternate measurement of cents could be a feature request. Not necessarily displaying cents on the TI itself, but maybe just in VC as an alternate value displayed along with the actual knob value.

Originally Posted by Remedial

Wish that they allowed detune on Oscillator 1

Me likewise, I originally hailed from the Korg Moss/Z1 virtual analogue synth (my first synth) which spoiled me in terms of openly pitching oscillators and modulating stuff.



Each Osc had the same huge oct/semi/cent/0.1Hz range independently available. Even the Sub.

Damn, the Moss was sooo quick and easy to program with the touchscreen. Would still love to see a touchscreen Virus. Maybe TI|3? (Ever hopeful, lol). But I digress...

Originally Posted by thomas

Yes, you can detune every part separatly on the common page in VC.
It's next to the transpose function. Also nice that if you load a new patch it stay's detuned by the given amount.

Nice. Yeah, that's definately not on the Virus B.