TI vs JP8K: Hypersaw as bright as Supersaw (audio inside)?..

[MonkeyMan]

Wasn't aimed at you Timo - more so the person who was whingeing about no-one posting bloody soundfiles. It's called can't be arsed.

[Wandering Kid]

Aaaaarrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh.

You don't buy a Ford Fiesta and then try and turn it into a Vauxhall Corsa or buy an apple and then try and turn it into an orange. (and don't start me on bananas!)

Just buy/borrow a bloody JP8000 and enough already.

And to be fair I am sure most people on here have got better things to do than create and post sound files for you - repeatedly. Maybe we can also cut your grass and perhaps wash your car while we are at it...

and

Wasn't aimed at you Timo - more so the person who was whingeing about no-one posting bloody soundfiles. It's called can't be arsed.

i can see you going real faaar with that attitude.

if you cant be arsed and you do not have anything constructive to add to the thread, why do you even bother replying?

cars and synthesizers are not comparible. why? because with synthesizers it is possible to emulate certain sounds from other synths, then change it back to a good old virus - synths are flexible like that.

modifying a car into another one makes it extremely difficult to turn it back into the old car because changes are permanent.

as an owner of a virus TI the thread starter can choose to make whatever sounds he wants on his synth. have you looked at your virus preset library recently? a number of patches are emulations of classic sounds from other hardware - minimoog clones, OB clones, 303 clones.

if your sound design is poor and you have loads of disposable income then sure, go ahead and buy a JP8000. while you are at it try finding the $5000 you would need to get a used minimoog, 303 and OB-1.

but doing that doesnt give you a better understanding of the synth you already own. that doesnt make you a better sound designer or producer. and it lumbers you with a new learning curve on new instruments.

i am tired of people saying it isnt possible to create supersaws or emulate analogue sounds on virus and dismissing it with 'cannot be done.'

just because YOU cannot does not automatically mean WE cannot.

if you do not want to post any raw waveforms that is perfectly up to you. just dont bother telling us in this thread. dont bother posting at all. im sure you have plenty of other things you could be 'busy' with.

good day to you sir.

[DIGITAL SCREAMS]

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

but let me counter riposte...

Go for it....I like discussion...

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

......you have to understand that a large proportion of the human race wont really know what an oberheim is, let alone what an OB-1 sounds like

Agreed

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

sound design and music production in general is a very very subtle thing. i like to think that i am very familiar with how an access virus b sounds but i have been consistantly fooled by other producers into thinking it was another synth

I dont quite follow what you mean - are you saying that some of your friends have made sounds on a virus and it led you to believe it came from another synth?

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

it depends on so many things from how you program it to how much air you leave on, to how you process it both during and after production

For some sounds.....possibly yes.....post production etc could/can make certain digital/VA sounds 'sound analog.' However, Id have to emphasise....only a few sounds could get away with this....

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

what is the soul of a classic synth? do instruments have a soul or is it the instrumentalist that gives it a soul? are synths nothing but discrete electronic modules? are you talking about the random subtlties of analog? the subtle changes in pitch over time? the fact some of them have have quirky characteristics and flaws?

Ive watched the Bob Moog documentary several times over (and I own a copy - its worth it!) and theres an interview with Bob, Rick Wakeman and a few others.....and they comment on the 'soul' factor. In fact Rick refers to it as the 'X' factor....and to him atleast its what makes a synth a GREAT synth. Im of the impression that instrumentalists such as Rick and Vangelis exploit this soul, make it their own and go on to define new genres of music....whilst the rest of us are foaming at the mouths trying to make 20 year old emulations on modern equipment.

To the second part....yes....I believe the soul in a synth comes from the subtle variations of analog components and their interaction with one another. A true analog sound is an organic/alive sound.....a digital sound is of 'playback' quality....Both can be used to great effect.....but using just digital coupled with modern digital recording practicies makes for boring records IMHO.

Sadly, I recently looked into analog recording....the equipment needed to make semi pro level recordings and its sooo expensive. Such a shame...

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

the virus is an interesting synth because it doesnt make it difficult to add a degree of randomness to a patch in order to make it sound...more 'alive'. mod matrix. source: random. detination: oscdetune or oscpitch. or whatever. with meticulous post processing you can get very very close

Thats interesting....and at the end of the day personal opinion on both our parts. When I had the Virus KC....there was nothing I could do to evoke analog randomness to the sound. I tried everything.....using mod matrix, subtle detunings, subtle amounts of distortion or what ever you fancy will not be the same as the effortless randomness you get with say a Prophet 5 or Mono-Poly.

Most people who make a retro sounding patch on a VA are happy with that....to them its good enough....and dare I say...serves the purpose for them. But for me.....its not good enough. I dont know what this says about me.....but its just where im different to other people. BTW.....i like the use of VA for sounds other than analog emulation. I like the 'analog style controls'......but I think VA's come into their own when making 'outhere' type sounds.

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

the technology is always improving and our knowledge is provisional. but dont rule out the fact that we will never *be able* to perfectly clone analogue instruments

It will be interesting to see if this ever happens. If it did....I still think the sound will have a digital sheen to it. Id love to know what causes that digital, glassy sheen that is heard on all digital synths. If one could remove that....then I think you'd be alot closer to an authentic experience.

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

i am glad to spend my time trying to see and recreate some of the details in the sounds of synths i cannot afford. at the same time, the results quite often just make me even more glad i bought a virus b

Theres no harm in that....its ironic....but im trying to make super modern sounds using a DX7 right now...and yes!....it is fun

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

but to suggest that you buy a virtual analogue instrument to only create virtual analogue stock sounds is such a narrow approach. i will try to emulate any sound i hear that i find compelling and interesting enough to warrant the excercise. in the end i will at least learn something new about how that sound is made. or how it is definitely not made if i should not be way off the mark. but look at the presets on your virus - how many presets are oberheim emulations? moog emulations? 303 emulations? how many flute and violin and cello sounds do you see on it?

Agreed, the best way to learn sound design is to experiment and realise what a synth can and can't do. For instance, the DX7 is my first synth that has 3 8 stage envelope generators for rate, level and pitch. The pitch EG's are interesting.....if your wanting acoustic simulations of bass, guitar, flute, organs etc etc....then you must have a pitch EG.

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

....that your copy will be imperfect. but sometimes, and this happen alot for me, there is something about the sound of my copy that i like, that isnt necessarily what i like about the original sound. so i will keep reiterating this and incorporating/deriving new ideas from other original sounds. and over time, this will become *my* sound

A good point m8....and a nice way to end our discussion

DS

[MonkeyMan]

WK wind your neck in - It was supposed to be a bit of fun!

In my opinion having read the entire thread I felt that the originator was being a little bit too vocal in his repetitive asking of people to spend considerable time in making/creating/posting sounds for him to listen to. In fact a few people expressed the opinion that they cannot be bothered on this point - and that includes me.

All of my posts are generally intended to be good humoured - as was the one in question and should not be taken personally or to heart. It sounds to me like someone is a bit too sensitive for their-own good and has taken my (tongue in cheek) advice the wrong way. (try Yoga or breathing techniques - my friend reckons stroking cats also helps but he has since been arrested for this.)

As for not being constructive I think you will find that I offered PLENTY of constructive advice - it may just be that you did not want to hear it.

The beauty of forums like these, are that they enable people with similar interests to express an opinion (right or wrong!) That is what I have done - and WILL continue to do.

I hold no grudges pal.

[Wandering Kid]

im used to the SA forums where worthless posts get you banned. thats just a product of having 60,000 forum posters and sometimes, i tend to take that view elsewhere. its not intentional. just habit. and if it seems like i am sensitive i am not. i just dont see the point of replying to a thread in which you cannot be bothered to contribute anything meaningful to. is this an unreasonable point of view?

i fail to see the point in taking the time out to tell the threadstarter that you cannot be bothered to help him out in his own thread. how very constructive of you. i mean, what the fucking christ is that all about? i also fail to see how any of what i quoted from you could be considered 'lighthearted,' 'humerous' or a 'bit of fun.'

back on topic though, i finally think im close to nailing a supersaw on a virus b...

heres the result:

http://media.putfile.com/Virus-B-Supersaw-v231

same high shelf is on it as before. detune is way up this time and unison detune is maxed. this is actually a multipatch but i cannot play it in realtime because it exceeds the voice limit of my virus b by a long way.

i had to up unison to x5 on the intervals. the sub part has unison cranked up to x8 and has the sub oscillator mixed in. the intervals and sub were recorded separately. then spliced together in soundforge.

the lower you play notes on the virus, the more buzzy the saw becomes. the JP supersaw can go really low (below C3) and it sounds really smooth. i kind of fluked through this and realised that the higher unison is, on low notes (below C4), the more fuzzy and smooth it sounds and it covers up the buzzing somewhat.

i normally dont like detune up this high because certain notes above C6 sound almost out of tune. but that was the only way i could get the fuzz like the reference sound im using.

i went back to a previous revision and redid all of the post processing. i will post the raw sound as well as the interval and sub parts separately to show you what a vast difference a high shelf can do and it abley demonstrates just how lacking in top end the virus saw/square is. overall its something of a pain in the ass to assemble.

you can definitely get very very close though. provided you have enough voices and the high shelf. again TI users will be laughing all the way to the trance factory...

[Keithie_Boy]

Wandering Kid, im loving that patch 8O

any chance of u posting it up or emailing it to me if u have time?

keithie_boy@hotmail.com

[Wandering Kid]

i am reluctant to give it away because i use most of the sound assets i create.

however, i did post fairly detailed instructions on how i build an earlier version of this patch in the main forum only a few days ago. should still be there. together with the info i posted in this thread you should be able to build something very much like it.