People forgetting the human

[Juho L]

That mixdown thread inspired me.

I've seen many threads on various forums about minor quality issues like people comparing DAC's, analog and digital mixing, monitors, etc. Some people seem to think that those totally trivial and hardly audible issues are essential for good result and totally forget that the result is 99,9% dependant on the person operating the system.

I couldn't care less what bloody DAC's are on my studio system or how I'm doing the mixing. One of the basic rules of life also applies to studio work: Can't make candy out of shit. An adept bloke can get brilliant stuff even on medicore system and totally unskilled guy can't get antyhing good even he would have 100,000,000 euro studio.

I'm always very amused when people start to compare DAC's like they would have huge effect on the result. People should rather waste their energy on discussing about mastering and mixing techinques rather than on some pseudo-science of mixing algorithms and analogue vs. digital. If your mix sounds muddy it doesn't mean that you should get better gear, it usually just means that you suck. Hoho. The human makes the sound, not the gear.

You won't lern to paint better if you buy the most expensive paints and brushes available. You learn to paint better if you practise painting instead of discussing which paints have the best tone of colour. So people, please, forget the trivialities do something useful for a change. ?hih.

[xerxes_]

amen!

best post i have ever read on this massivly worn out topic.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by xerxes_

amen!

best post i have ever read on this massivly worn out topic.

Thanks. Good to have back up on this issue.

I can't even remember when there have been a good discussion on something actually useful mixing/mastering issue. All discussions have been on this "hardly audible" area. I think I'll put up a one useful thread now.

[Wandering Kid]

i agree in that 99% of the time, its the person who fucks up. if they blame their tools or say they need better tools to better their mix then most of time they are looking for a quick easy fix to a problem where the only solution is to just try and try again until you get it right.

if your mixdown is a steaming turd and has blatent EQing problems, phasing problems etc etc. you can run them through thousands of dollars worth of effects, DACs and amazing new fangled dithering algorythyms. it'll just be an effected, dithered turd at the end of the day.

but for the people that arent making turds. you know. i can see why they want to perfect their sound and you can get closer to that by knowing how to dither properly. by using certain DACs and effects. this stuff is useless to people like me because my production isnt at a stage where i feel its solid. i still get EQ problems, and my stereo placement is still a bit...errr random. so for peeps like me, its much more worthwhile investing time in how to produce a track properly as opposed to worry about DACs and stuff like that. people that blame poor DACs, poor renderers, poor mastering software when they have blatently just produced a shat track. the old expression 'bad worksman blames his tools' springs to mind.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by Wandering Kid

but for the people that arent making turds. you know. i can see why they want to perfect their sound and you can get closer to that by knowing how to dither properly. by using certain DACs and effects. this stuff is useless to people like me because my production isnt at a stage where i feel its solid. i still get EQ problems, and my stereo placement is still a bit...errr random. so for peeps like me, its much more worthwhile investing time in how to produce a track properly as opposed to worry about DACs and stuff like that. people that blame poor DACs, poor renderers, poor mastering software when they have blatently just produced a shat track. the old expression 'bad worksman blames his tools' springs to mind.

Yup. Then you're entitled to ponder differences of DAC's and other trivial "sound polish" things when you're adept at mixing and mastering and only way to improve is for example to change DAC's. My point is that people tend to start from the "sound polish" area and forget to study the area that covers 99,9% of a good result. This is intuitivelly hazardous situation.

I can bet my arm that this forum doesn't have adept sound engineers (that kind of blokes that have a soundwise touch of Midas). It's just silly to focus on the most trivial details when you have lot to improve in your skills. Only really small fraction of people hear difference between DAC's and mixing methods, but everyone can hear a difference between a good mix and a bad mix and the human does the mix.

I know one professional producer and whatever he does it sounds bloody good. Does he have carefully selected DAC's? Does he have an analog mixing desk with thousands of dollars processing gear? No. He has an ordinary PC and the mixes sound good because he knows what he is doing.

[jasedee]

If you dont think that equipment matters, you are fooling yourselves....

If you cant hear the difference in quality of a shit DAC and a really nice DAC, you need your hearing checked

If you think your behringer preamps sound as nice as Neve preamps, then brother, are you in for a shock....

Im not saying equipment is everything

I completely agree with alot of what is said here. I cant make a good recording if the artist has no talent. But if you have an amazing artist, and you record him in a beautiful room, with gorgeous mics, big phat Neve pre's, hitting that tape hard, then the results will surely speak for themselves....

If you cant hear the difference between a recording done on beautiful vintage analogue gear, and a recording done at home via a budget mixer, budget mics, and budget converter....well......I dont know, you need to experience 'good' sound first hand.

[Hollowcell]

Originally Posted by Juho L

I know one professional producer and whatever he does it sounds bloody good. Does he have carefully selected DAC's? Does he have an analog mixing desk with thousands of dollars processing gear? No. He has an ordinary PC and the mixes sound good because he knows what he is doing.

Imagine what his stuff would sound like with some nice gear then.

Give it 5 years and there won't be any talk on this topic (maybe). At the moment though, there is a difference (specially in the hands of a talented user). Get access to a studio similar to the one Jase has been working at and take a listen.

Like I've said before though, I am making demos only. I'm not producing other peoples music or making cash from recording. I don't need the best, but lying to myself by saying my computer can do just as well as the top gear isn't clever at all.

Your producer friend Juho. Is he producing other bands (not dance) for money, or is he producing his own music for small scale release?

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by jasedee

But if you have an amazing artist, and you record him in a beautiful room, with gorgeous mics, big phat Neve pre's, hitting that tape hard, then the results will surely speak for themselves....

But the result will be totally ruined if you don't know how to make a good mix/master. This is the point. It's more essential to be a good in mixing/mastering than waste time in studying trivialities.

If you cant hear the difference between a recording done on beautiful vintage analogue gear, and a recording done at home via a budget mixer, budget mics, and budget converter....well......I dont know, you need to experience 'good' sound first hand.

Of course equipement counts and affects the sound, but people shouldn't start from there. What's the point in discussing quality differences of equipement if you don't even know how to use the potential of the equipement. Bad mix is a bad mix no matter what equipement is used.

[Juho L]

Originally Posted by Hollowcell

Imagine what his stuff would sound like with some nice gear then.:D

He just uses Cubase SX and he always has that billion dollar sound.

Your producer friend Juho. Is he producing other bands (not dance) for money, or is he producing his own music for small scale release?

One of the leading comercial music producers around here. Also does music for TV and random band projects.

[Juho L]

I'll just sum up: Equipement of course affects the sound, but if you suck, no gear can save your ass. If you know what you're doing you can get great results even on average system. The point is that people waste their energy on things that less help them to create great mixes. If all that energy could be channeled on studying and parctising mixing/mastering we would have much better sounding stuff around. The human makes the overall sound. Hifi $20k equipement is just polishing.