Questions about total integration

[piVVi]

I have some questions about Ti!
I'll think to buy a Ti keyboard and use it with my computer, without audio card. I'll use ableton live to control the 16 parts of the virus (by usb midi).
I want also use some vst effects on the virus parts. I want to monitoring all by headphone out of the virus.
Is this possible?
I'll have some problems with latency or is like to use a normal hardware synth (zero latency)?.

thanks to all

[nutekk]

in theory you should be able to accomplish what you want to.
in actuallity it may come down to your computer components/drivers.

hardware synths are not zero latency...however they are a very usable latency of say under 15ms.
you should be able to keep your system latency around this.

my TI is working nicely with a DFI lanparty nf4 motherboard
and a creamware scope system.

ill caution you though by monitoring all by headphone...
this will make it an uphill battle to get a usable mix(as if it wasnt hard enouph)
and to much headphone use will damage your hearing.

[piVVi]

hardware synths are not zero latency...however they are a very usable latency of say under 15ms.
you should be able to keep your system latency around this

mmm... actually I play with 2 ms with my setup

my TI is working nicely with a DFI lanparty nf4 motherboard
and a creamware scope system.

I have also a nf4 motherboard (asus)

caution you though by monitoring all by headphone...
this will make it an uphill battle to get a usable mix(as if it wasnt hard enouph)
and to much headphone use will damage your hearing.

eheh no other options actually

thanks for your reply.
a last question: if you use the output of your Ti for monitoring (so without your creamware) what is the latency that you can obtain?

[nutekk]

sure 2ms...for your computer sound card.
but many hardaware synths do not have this tight of timing!

as for the TI Latency i had it around 6ms...
dont have it set up that way now,using my creamware
but it seemed stable @ that setting.\

[grs]

I've got the TI in Cubase SX 3.02 in sync using a combination of USB outs and hardware outs. But I'm not using the Virus Asio, not enough channels realy. The trick is to route the virus TI analog outs to your seqencer and then using a delay plugin to sync back up. The analog outputs are acutally ahead of time due to the Virus Control vsti plugin having to be delay compinsated by the host. Make audio inputs and audio tracks for you hardware outs and press the preview speaker on the audio track.

In all the delay plugin is set to 24ms on each track that is a virus hardware out. If you need realtime monitoring just undo the delay plugin for recording a part.

It's also better to use the analog if your sound card is good because of the extra bit depth. Try putting a harsh pumping 50:1 compressor on the USB outs and listen to the awfull tails.

[piVVi]

mmm... I understand nothing!
But, If I monitor all the part from virus headphone out, why I have to send audio through usb port? usb must trasmit only midi, right?
So, If I play a key on the virus and listen it by his headphone out I have latency?

Maybe in the last moment, when I need to render the complete track I have to use usb for audio, right? why usb audio sound not good as analog audio? In theory if you use analog you have to do dual conversion, with the usb all remain in digital domain, right?

thanks for your time

[Timo]

Originally Posted by nutekk

hardware synths are not zero latency...however they are a very usable latency of say under 15ms.

Standalone hardware synths (going straight into speakers, without going into your computer) have latencies of 15ms?! I seriously don't think so!

True, by the very nature of DSP processing/chips being used in hardware synths, there will be a finite latency (1ms, maybe?), but absolutely nowhere near 15ms!

For example, at 10ms latency, even, you can already feel stuff lacking that critical, immediate response when using soft-synths. Hardware synths just don't suffer from that, as their signal flow is much leaner, cleaner, and much more heavily optimised (machine code, dedicated DSPs, etc.).

Unless you're talking about triggering the hardware synths via MIDI through an external sequencer (from your computer), in which case, midi latencies triggered and interfaced via Firewire would be about 5ms, USB probably the same or slightly more, but PCI MIDI interfaces suffering much less @ around 1ms.

For monitoring and routing audio from an externally played hardware synth through effects on a computer, the audio latency will be limited by your computer resources (CPU) and also your soundcard interface and its respective software drivers. All being well, there are options, I think, allowing you go down as far as 1.5ms, but your CPU usage will rocket, depending on load. Most people compromise their latencies slightly, to allow them to process more channels at any one time, such as 5ms or greater. 10ms or more and you start to notice the lag. It also depends on what you want to do with the processed audio... Due to the lag induced by computers, you can't often mix the processed audio back with the original, as it creates comb-filtering due to the altered delays/phases.

PS > Slightly OT, nutekk, but how are you finding your NForce4 based computer? I heard NForce4 was initially a no-no with regards to critical realtime music programs and processing, causing unduly high CPU usage and high latencies?

Check out these threads:-

[Nuendo forum thread - "NForce4 tests"]

[Sound-On-Sound forum thread - "Warning NForce/PCI-E"]

[RME Audio NForce4 warning]

I guess/hope it's been ironed out, now?

[nutekk]

do some research dude!
yes through synth history..there have been models with bad keyboard latencies.
memorymoog was noted for having a 12ms latency.
i believe an emulator2 also was a problem
even a roland jv1080 has a 5ms latency!
and many others.
i have a paper somewhere with lists of synths and there respective latencies.(i used to manage a used synth store in NYC -CROCODILE)
NONE WERE ZERO LATENCY!


im not going to just talk bullshit on this forum.

anyway the nf4 is fooking great for audio.
no problems what so ever...
as for the pci-e problemsi have put it in an 8x slot instead of the 16x
so the the bandwidth availible is less
but i think it was hit or miss anyway
i upgraded from a nf2 barton3000 and experianced huge gains
so im happy!
the ultra-d's bios is very programmable so it lets you really tune the
system nicely..plus the overclocking on this board kills most other models.

[techno_7]

12ms? Thats not bad. I run my ASIO drivers on 11 ms, and it all works(and sounds) perfect.

[piVVi]

Originally Posted by piVVi

mmm... I understand nothing!
But, If I monitor all the part from virus headphone out, why I have to send audio through usb port? usb must trasmit only midi, right?
So, If I play a key on the virus and listen it by his headphone out I have latency?

Maybe in the last moment, when I need to render the complete track I have to use usb for audio, right? why usb audio sound not good as analog audio? In theory if you use analog you have to do dual conversion, with the usb all remain in digital domain, right?

thanks for your time

please, can someone reply to this?
thanks!