So what's the deal with Mavericks?

[Barnelby]

I got the email from access about the TI having issues with Mavericks over a week ago... so last night when I decided to upgrade I poked around a little bit... googled "virus compatibility with mavericks" etc and saw nothing that deterred me from going ahead and upgrading AND buying logic 10.

I thought I was in the clear.

Obviously I am not.

Does anyone know the latest news on the issue?

Thinking about time machine-ing back to yesterday, which would involve figuring out how to step back on the OS (have read that it can be done but is a hassle). Blarg.

[TweakHead]

Not a good idea to rush OS updates when working with audio. Couple of reasons for that: sometimes big companies like Apple tend to push the industry in ways that serve their needs more so then it does serve the aspirations of the users, even pro users. The simple, ahead of almost anyone, drop of 32 bit plug-ins support, for one. Taking away firewire connections after promoting it and making it a standard. That's just like 80% of the interfaces people have and are not willing to replace a perfectly functioning equipment that delivers just because the high priests at Apple decided it's the way to go.

Then there's the secretive approach to the market, where they decide where it's going to go and developers have to catch up after this changes have been implemented, rather then being kept in close dialogue so that there's no bad surprises.

Logic X reads to me like a huge mistake by Apple. The interface in 9 was much better and felt more organized and less crowded. The screen feels small even using a 24-inches display on my mac. The drop of 32 bit plug-ins rendered prior investments in plug-ins that would otherwise continue to work completely useless, just because.

Couple those two things together and you can see that Apple doesn't care much for their pro users, because if you were to ask anyone if they'd like to see both firewire and 32 bit plug-ins go down the sink so soon, the answer they'd clearly get is: NO!

So when a company does that to their pro audio community and manages to get 10 out of 10 reviews on magazines despite of it (which is something i couldn't believe) with their Audio host, what can you expect of this new update? What about that app nap thing? How will this instruments cope with that? Like the Virus or Maschine? Probably they won't! No one was expecting such a thing to be implemented anyways...

Yeah, reverting back is a good idea... Next time, do what I did and install the new OS and Logic X on another disk or partition just to be sure you really feel good in Snow Leopard and Logic 9...

Cheers

[MBTC]

This is one reason that using my Mac and Logic didn't work out well in my case. Because I do iOS development, I have to be on the bleeding edge with regard to Apple updates. It would completely fark my music environment to do that.

Microsoft isn't good at everything, but they are quite good at maintaining backward compatibility. It's amazing that most software written 35 yrs ago still runs on the latest and greatest version of Windows.

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by MBTC

This is one reason that using my Mac and Logic didn't work out well in my case. Because I do iOS development, I have to be on the bleeding edge with regard to Apple updates. It would completely fark my music environment to do that.

Microsoft isn't good at everything, but they are quite good at maintaining backward compatibility. It's amazing that most software written 35 yrs ago still runs on the latest and greatest version of Windows.

Yeah, we used to have that on macs as well. The more drastic change was when they switched from IBM based computers to Intel, of course. So a lot of older plug-ins were lost during this change, some were made universal binary so as to serve all the people and now everything for mac is for one platform only. Developers adopted this transition spirit and really put an effort to make hybrids for both architectures...

Ok, a change in architecture is a good reason to change things. But 32 to 64 bit just because isn't. And certainly some minor updates to the OS isn't either.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by TweakHead

Yeah, we used to have that on macs as well. The more drastic change was when they switched from IBM based computers to Intel, of course. So a lot of older plug-ins were lost during this change, some were made universal binary so as to serve all the people and now everything for mac is for one platform only. Developers adopted this transition spirit and really put an effort to make hybrids for both architectures...

Ok, a change in architecture is a good reason to change things. But 32 to 64 bit just because isn't. And certainly some minor updates to the OS isn't either.

I agree.... another example is iOS 7, and how badly it performs on pretty much any iOS device that's more than 2.5 years old.

It pretty much forces the user to upgrade their hardware, but we have to understand this is Apple's entire business model. They make money off hardware, not software. If they don't constantly find ways of making your hardware from two years ago obsolete, they are out of business.

This is very different from Microsoft, who has always made money off the software and for a long time stayed completely out of the hardware business. Now, they "dabble" in hardware, for example buying Nokia's phone division, making their own Surface tablets, etc, but they mostly do that to prevent the kind of fragmentation problems Google ran into with Android and having a gazillion different variants of an OS running on different vendors phones and tablets.

One way or another, we have to pay to play in technology. It just depends on which business model you consider the lesser of evils: Microsoft stays in business via software upgrades, Apple stays in business via hardware upgrades, and Google stays in business by finding ways of selling out your privacy to marketing people.

I personally find the MS approach the least offensive.

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by MBTC

I agree.... another example is iOS 7, and how badly it performs on pretty much any iOS device that's more than 2.5 years old.

It pretty much forces the user to upgrade their hardware, but we have to understand this is Apple's entire business model. They make money off hardware, not software. If they don't constantly find ways of making your hardware from two years ago obsolete, they are out of business.

This is very different from Microsoft, who has always made money off the software and for a long time stayed completely out of the hardware business. Now, they "dabble" in hardware, for example buying Nokia's phone division, making their own Surface tablets, etc, but they mostly do that to prevent the kind of fragmentation problems Google ran into with Android and having a gazillion different variants of an OS running on different vendors phones and tablets.

One way or another, we have to pay to play in technology. It just depends on which business model you consider the lesser of evils: Microsoft stays in business via software upgrades, Apple stays in business via hardware upgrades, and Google stays in business by finding ways of selling out your privacy to marketing people.

I personally find the MS approach the least offensive.

When you put it like that, me to!

A few years ago, if you had a mac it would last you for a long time! And new OS updates would still run on older machines, besides the machines themselves would probably last you a lifetime at least for a more moderate usage. Second best thing about them, besides the overall quality - I remember that an imac screen would put almost any computer screen to shame - was security and the other reason, what probably made it so famous for audio people, was the overall stability of the system.

I still think that the mac OS feels more robust and the interface is better thought out then Windows, but currently there's some stuff that kind of annoys me. I used to be ahead of the curve, with the latest OS and software. But something made me think twice about Lion, then Mountain Lion, then Logic X which was one of those awkward moments of excitement followed by a deception like "why on earth would they go down this path?" kind of thing. But then, if you want to update Maschine's software to v2 you need the new OS... So eventually, I'll be forced to change...

The thing is I don't really want to. I don't like Logic X's new interface. I don't feel particularly touched by the new features, I think it's more of a cosmetic thing and makes a system demand more resources for doing exactly the same with the same plug-ins (tested!!!).

To be honest I've been considering investing a little more time with Ableton and even Reaper 'cause I know I'll be forced to move somewhere if I want to be able to get new stuff and I don't feel like keeping myself on Apple's boat anymore. Maybe the OS (specially if you consider live act) but certainly not Logic X. Would I ever dream of saying something like this after (I don't know how) many years of using Logic? NO! Glad there little toys are selling a lot for them, but been feeling like everyone's supper happy about a stupid phone and tablet that does pretty much the same thing every other one does, except looks nicer with flashy graphics and stuff like that, while with computers we're seeing less and less respect for the user's previous investments. Firewire is no small thing, top of the line audio interfaces worth many K use this standard. And it's not like Apple hasn't promote this to oblivion previously. And the thing is, there isn't any new technology out there that makes the change worthy for someone with a dedicated RME audio interface with very low latency, top notch pre-amps, nice and steady word clock, so forth and so on. So we're talking a lot of money here. To my mind, even dropping the cd/dvd thing so fast is kind of silly. If this is to become a new kind of fascist cool, I'm certainly out of the party. While these new gadgets may feel like a dream come true to many, perhaps due to my interest in the technology and concerns about privacy like you mention, like Linux's policies much more then any proprietary, jail-like, push users into the stuff we like and punish competition, kind of thing...

With the new OS that comes packed with previously paid-for software becoming free, they're actually turning more aggressive while people comment on how this thing was such a good move on their behalf. It's not, it renders perfectly capable machines useless and will ultimately make people feel like they need a new one. Most people don't feel it like I do, probably, because this things still sell by the millions, but why on earth would I care for better facebook and twitter integration? Or the App nap thing, when most pro audio people will work with just one app at a time anyways? I could go on...

Goes so far as to say: most people should be aware that google and facebook are not exactly public services and that it's a bit scary to see less and less competition for such things, in the sense that only one color world always reads to me like the product of control obsessed people rather then democracy where choice is just a BIG part of the game. If you know what I mean (I'm sure you do!).

So I hope Reaper continues to grow and it already is the only software whose work flow is totally definable by the user, even mouse behavior. The thing feels light and stable, and enables both audio unit and vst (even vst3) formats to be used on the same machine for next to no money. And even 32 and 64 bit plug-ins running next to each other with no problems at all. So you get flexibility with almost free software and you get dictatorship with paid for software on expensive machines - that start to feel like big ilok keys to me, lately.

[MBTC]

I think it's not a bad thing to go with a DAW that's committed to cross-platform compatibility. I tried Logic a couple of years ago, and found it okay as far as DAWs go, some aspects I liked and others not so much. But then I started seeing weird changes within Apple that really rattled my confidence in committing to the Mac as a music making platform.

Recently, Apple has said "we are committed to OS X". From someone who has worked inside many software companies, I can tell you that the fact they have to announce that is a scary statement in itself. It means there is a lot of question internally regarding how much resources will really be invested in OS X going forward (relative to their other, much more successful products like iOS). The fact that they have to prepare a public statement to reassure the public that OS X is not in danger, is almost a sure sign that long term, OS X is in danger. It doesn't mean that we won't still have Macs 10 years from now, we certainly will. It just means that we probably won't see the "win" and marketshare increase in Macs we saw from about 2006-2011 or so, and we will see Apple increasingly putting their money on iOS as an alternative to Macs.

So, honestly I think your strategy of spending more time with Ableton or even Reaper is probably a wise one over the long haul, that way you have the option of another music OS without losing all your workflow habits and having to learn a new DAW from the ground up later.

I went mostly Cubase for a lot of the same reasons. Prior to Cubase, I found myself spending way too much time in FLStudio. FLS is a fantastic DAW, but very Windows dependent.

[TweakHead]

Those are exactly my thoughts. It has hit me recently that by not willing to update to the latest software by Apple, I was on a journey to something else.

I started with Reason and later got Logic because at the time I felt that dealing with only that very limited set of devices was a handicap for me and I had developed an interest in working with audio along with software instruments and later hardware. Reason has recently developed into a full blown host with audio recording and midi connections, and later with their Rack Extensions, it's sill far from the diversity you get with other daws with vst or audio unit formats for third party plug-ins.

I've also used Cubase, most specially during those times when I had trouble with the mac, and I can tell you it's one of those that have a very similar workflow to Logic, some things I like best - specially in Audio editting - and some I don't like as much, like handling automation and midi, that Logic still rules entirely. But it's a very complete DAW and is one that I could easily move to if I wanted. I've been atracted to Ableton, first because I got the stripped down version along with my Remote SL keyboard and it was the right thing to use for testing out live gig situations. Then bought some magazines (music tech) dedicated to it and the interest has grown. It's got a very unique workflow that somehow makes more sense when you add a device like Maschine into the equation, since it's really (or at least to me it feels like that) loop based sequencing, handles automation in a clever way (in loops as well) and you compose while having fun, not really paying that much attention to tech stuff while composing. And pretty much everyone seems to be using it these days, so it would enable me to make music with other people...

Will try to get back to Ableton once I catch some time, have some work load to handle atm and this things are better when you feel your mind is free to experiment and play with stuff.

[plaid_emu]

I agree with quite a lot that's been said here about Apple. Although I think it's a bit odd that so many folks who seem knowledgeable about technology keep mentioning the abandonment of firewire. Thunderbolt is backwards compatible with firewire 400/800 with an adapter cable.

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by plaid_emu

I agree with quite a lot that's been said here about Apple. Although I think it's a bit odd that so many folks who seem knowledgeable about technology keep mentioning the abandonment of firewire. Thunderbolt is backwards compatible with firewire 400/800 with an adapter cable.

indeed! if you buy one of Apple's expensive adaptors you'll be able to use your "old" gear. but bus powered audio interfaces will need their power supply now. in a gig situation, this means having to carry another power supply thing around.

that can raise many issues, like imagine that you need to connect the interface where they've connected the stage speakers power, you could get nasty noise going easily...

On another note, I've read online reports about Logic X not working well with OS Mavericks? Really? I know a lot of people who have used Logic for years and years, me included, and are still stuck with Snow Leopard and Logic 9 because most reports and tests (I've made it myself with another disk) turn out to be an utter complete mess when it comes to reliability. Bare in mind Logic X still has some very good features and is probably the most complete package you can get, and the cheapest of them all - along with the OS of course. Pretty sure this will get much more stable in the near future to, since they've really put an effort on it. You can see by how fast they're dropping updates for it (just check the logic x update log on Apple's website to see how many bugs they've fixed). Overall Logic 9 has been fine tuned to work well under SL, a tack (as in tick-tack) OS by Apple that has improved performance on many levels. So that's stable and good.

But of course, for example, can't just update Maschine to the v2 since it's 10.7+ and some other stuff to (even a godamn pinball game I got the other day XD "this app doesn't run on your current operating system"), so most people are feeling that they need to keep an eye on developments and many - including me - decided to keep the current rig and spend more money on a new system to install the latest and (perhaps, time will tell) greatest software in there so as to make things easy. Not a wise move by Apple, no matter how you put it or look at it.

Now there's some third party developers doing all sorts of 32 bit bridge plug-in wrappers or 32 to 64 bit plug-ins converters to work with Logic X. Since that's also a big issue for the vast majority of people. You can't simply drop all your current projects and start fresh. If you have remixes and soundtracks for movies and stuff like that on your hard drive that you need to deliver on time, right? So that's where it's at, getting a new rig pretty soon and will take my time testing stuff out before I feel confident enough to make the move myself.