DAW discussions

[Berni]

Originally Posted by MBTC

I definitely see the creative aspect. The CPU usage (which might be a problem that's limited to VST wrapping on the PC only) is a big concern of mine. Unfortunately this "lite" version I have only allows me to add up to four instruments, so I cannot really put it to the test beyond adding a few heavy CPU eating synths and comparing. I wish they would just give me either a limited trial like Cubase, or something with a more logical functional limitation (like the FLStudio trial lets you do anything you want except save a project).

I did a little research on this, and apparently the CPU use picture on the PC does not seem to get much better. One guy was saying he can load an identical project side by side in Live and Cubase, and the CPU usage is 60% in Live and 15% in Cubase. That's really a big deal for the way I work, CPU for VSTs is everything and is really the only reason I have a need for hardware synths (other than the fact I like them). Again, could be a PC thing only and a non-issue on the Mac.

You can try the fully working suite version for free for 30 days
https://www.ableton.com/en/trial/

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by Berni

You can try the fully working suite version for free for 30 days
https://www.ableton.com/en/trial/

Nice! Thanks, I missed that, good to know and I will definitely check it out. It even says I can run it side by side with existing 8 install without impact.

[Berni]

Originally Posted by MBTC

Nice! Thanks, I missed that, good to know and I will definitely check it out. It even says I can run it side by side with existing 8 install without impact.

Yeah they are both seperate beasts. I have 8 & 9 on my computer with no conflicting issue's.

[MBTC]

Installed Ableton 9 trial -- awesome that it let's me install without activating (i.e. I'm not limited to 30 days, I just can't save or import, which is fine for my learning tests).

Now the bad news -- still getting bad performance with VSTs on this particular PC.

The test:

Start a new project with nothing else CPU dependent going on.

Load an instance of Massive into a track, load the factory patch 1991, and play down a note like C1 for about 2-3 bars or so for a constant note (holding it down).

Duplicate the instance of Massive about 12-13 times into new tracks, keeping same patch and midi data. Experiment with buffer size around 512 or so. Cubase and FLStudio will start giving up pops around the 13th instance, while Ableton starts popping on #7 and completely shat the bed on maybe 8 or 9th instance of Massive.


Can anyone with a PC and at least a mid range processor, with Cubase (any version) and Ableton (any version) see if they get same?


Berni it would be interesting to know your results with same too, although I suspect this is somehow related to Ableton's liking of PC audio drivers so I think you will get an entirely different result.

[grs]

Originally Posted by MBTC

Yeah, understanding how I was going to deal with automation (during the times I draw it rather than record it) was one of the first things I learned how to do in Cubase because I use it so frequently.

I think I understand what you're saying about Live... I had to go into Live 8 and try it out. I didn't see a way to draw a line, but I think you mean something like a velocity ramp sloping up left to right that's "linearly perfect", is that correct? If you resize the window in Ableton to a ridiculous height temporarily, you can get it very close with the mouse (close enough that it would look perfect when you make the window smaller and the sound would be indistinguishable from a perfect line). Maybe I'm not following you though.

Yes, correct, and you get used to 'sounds right' and get on with it. Maybe I listen more and get a more organic results.

[MBTC]

Update - bought Cubase 7 and my copy came with one of the CMC hardware controllers (actually made by Yamaha for Steinberg). The one that came with Cubase is the CH model (controls things like track switch, automation, volume, panning... awesome touch slider!). It takes all of 60 seconds from plugging the thing in to see how much effect it will have on my workflow. Loved it so much that I ordered the CMC-AI one (the one with the knob where you hover the mouse over any knob on the screen and the knob controls that).

Also, I guess nobody has had a chance to try the above CPU test?

[Berni]

Originally Posted by MBTC

Update - bought Cubase 7 and my copy came with one of the CMC hardware controllers (actually made by Yamaha for Steinberg). The one that came with Cubase is the CH model (controls things like track switch, automation, volume, panning... awesome touch slider!). It takes all of 60 seconds from plugging the thing in to see how much effect it will have on my workflow. Loved it so much that I ordered the CMC-AI one (the one with the knob where you hover the mouse over any knob on the screen and the knob controls that).

Also, I guess nobody has had a chance to try the above CPU test?

Well seeing how u have both Cubase & Live on your machine it looks like your in the perfect position to do some A/B comparisons of both DAW's. Would be interesting to hear your findings. Having said that Cubase is as old as the hills & Live 9 has only been out a few weeks so at this stage it might be a bit unfair to compare the 2.
I personally tend to use the track freeze function in Live so I generally dont use a lot of instances of any plug-in at any one time. If I have time over the weekend I'll give it a go though & see how many Massives I can stack up, Lol.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by Berni

Well seeing how u have both Cubase & Live on your machine it looks like your in the perfect position to do some A/B comparisons of both DAW's. Would be interesting to hear your findings. Having said that Cubase is as old as the hills & Live 9 has only been out a few weeks so at this stage it might be a bit unfair to compare the 2.
I personally tend to use the track freeze function in Live so I generally dont use a lot of instances of any plug-in at any one time. If I have time over the weekend I'll give it a go though & see how many Massives I can stack up, Lol.

In terms of overall sound quality, there's no real difference in sound between Cubase and Live. If any difference showed up under scrutiny, it would more likely be a result of differences in levels or default settings of the DAW or maybe even something I inadvertently tweaked along the way. In terms of the pops and crackles, the CPU use is a different story; it could be limited to the PC version as well. I was really convinced it was my own PC until I got out and did some reading, and it seems like other folks experienced similar plugin performance. But yeah you're right, if your workflow lends itself to freezing/bouncing, CPU use becomes almost a non-issue. This is actually one of the main reasons I wanted to go to another DAW, because I just don't like the way it is done in FLStudio -- more cumbersome than just right-clicking the track in Live or clicking the freeze icon to the left of the track in Cubase. In FLStudio you're doing basically the same thing, but because the patterns (sort of like clips) are a whole different beast than the mixer, you have to do the freezing on the mixer track which I find to be counter-intuitive.

For me though I like to minimize freezing where I can, because otherwise it will go something like this: Add monster CPU eater like Diva and play a lead. Sounds good, freeze it and come back later.... but then when I come back later, I've got so much other shit going on that unfreezing Diva is not even possible, I won't even be able to hear it without freezing lots of other stuff. So, too much of that can get in the way too.

Maschine is a nice tool to have here too though... can do all percussion on Maschine (I actually keep the Maschine editor open on a separate monitor) and just drag and drop the bounced clips into the DAW (works on all DAWS I think).

Right now though I'm loving these CMC controllers for Cubase! Game changer devices for me.

[Berni]

Originally Posted by MBTC

In terms of overall sound quality, there's no real difference in sound between Cubase and Live. If any difference showed up under scrutiny, it would more likely be a result of differences in levels or default settings of the DAW or maybe even something I inadvertently tweaked along the way. In terms of the pops and crackles, the CPU use is a different story; it could be limited to the PC version as well. I was really convinced it was my own PC until I got out and did some reading, and it seems like other folks experienced similar plugin performance. But yeah you're right, if your workflow lends itself to freezing/bouncing, CPU use becomes almost a non-issue. This is actually one of the main reasons I wanted to go to another DAW, because I just don't like the way it is done in FLStudio -- more cumbersome than just right-clicking the track in Live or clicking the freeze icon to the left of the track in Cubase. In FLStudio you're doing basically the same thing, but because the patterns (sort of like clips) are a whole different beast than the mixer, you have to do the freezing on the mixer track which I find to be counter-intuitive.

For me though I like to minimize freezing where I can, because otherwise it will go something like this: Add monster CPU eater like Diva and play a lead. Sounds good, freeze it and come back later.... but then when I come back later, I've got so much other shit going on that unfreezing Diva is not even possible, I won't even be able to hear it without freezing lots of other stuff. So, too much of that can get in the way too.

Maschine is a nice tool to have here too though... can do all percussion on Maschine (I actually keep the Maschine editor open on a separate monitor) and just drag and drop the bounced clips into the DAW (works on all DAWS I think).

Right now though I'm loving these CMC controllers for Cubase! Game changer devices for me.

Yeah I am loving the maschine/Live combo. Probably would have gone for the Push controller for Live if I didn't already have the Maschine but it is so versatile & also works stand alone & all my NI stuff is mapped to it which I wouldn't get with Push.
Got Komplete 9 coming this thursday...can't wait to play around with the synth to end all synth's, Lol. I have a feeling it is going to be somewhat of a disappointment if the hype is to be believed. Really looking forward to trying out the new Battery though, my favourite drum sampler.

[MBTC]

I am going to get Komplete at some point. Between Cubase and all the tools it comes with and the UltraNova, I've probably got enough toy overload. Plus there are some synths that come with Cubase that are amazing in themselves I need to learn. There's one called Padshop -- unbelievable granular synthesis! I will use this a lot. Then there is Halion which is very underrated, first impressions are it can compete with Nexus and Omnisphere.

Does Battery work with Maschine (I'm sure it does but maybe I should ask if it is seamlessly integrated?) If so I would probably use that a lot. Also comes with Komplete, right?