One synth to rule them all?

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by Berni

Well anything that isn't the generic crap I am hearing right now. I just listened to the 'trance' top 10 on Beatport which included artists...above & beyond, ferry corsten & armin van burren & it was abysmal.
I REAALLY wish someone would come up with some original trance. I was playing it back in the day before it was even called trance...it's now music for kids doing there first E.

Know exactly what you mean with "generic crap". But if you're after good produced trance, you need to avoid beatport - as it's just a showcase for the commercial trends. I personally like some of the new high tech (real fast) psytrance. It's maybe a bit to fast for most people,and maybe not your cup of tea, but those guys are exploring new territory in sound design for sure: such things as bombax, virtuanoise, oxidasi, kindzadza, so forth and so on. I still think Eat Static and Simon Postford and some of the old masters still deliver mind blowing music - Shpongle is like candy to the ears imo.

Did you have another name back in the day? For how long have you been producing music? Please enlighten me. I was lucky enough to catch the psytrance scene when it was still very cool in my country, which is portugal btw.

[TweakHead]

Yes, I tend to agree with all that you've said here. But among all the sub genres of trance, there's more things in common then differences. The structure and basic grooves are more a less the same. And the effect it has on listeners is similar as well. There's also very emotional and melodic psychedelic trance out there. Actually, there's tons of sub genres which is kind of natural since this all started in the early 90s and it's still developing these days. There's room for a lot of different variations, but "building up for a release" is something that's shared across most electronic music in general - and even some pop tunes, that's recurring more and more to EDM vocabulary.

But yes, you'll rarely find a supersaw lead on psychedelic trance, whereas on other genres of trance there's a lot of that going on, and more warm pads and stuff like that. The squelchy, acid sounds is more a characteristic of psychedelic music - and playing with generously applied effects is also a big factor. That is one of the reasons a synthesizer like the Virus which integrates the fx section so well - having its parameters available as destinations - is very popular for these genres.

Probably for anthem trance, people lust after the Roland sound, like the Juno JP8080, right? Not that I wouldn't love to have one. BTW, see them going for fairly reasonable prices in my country in mint condition. Has anyone here tried one? I think that's a very nice machine with the unmistakable Roland sound - and the original supersaw waves of course.

Also, don't know how the hypersaw on the Virus can live up to replace that, since I have the C. There's tons of plug-ins that can do it fairly well nowadays. Lush 101 is one of the best, Zeta +1 is another, but there's plenty more, like Zebra can make that kind of Lead very well, no?

[MBTC]

The JP-8000/JP-8080 (actually was technically not a Juno or Jupiter) has a lot of historical importance to trance, and considered a predecessor to the VA synths that came after it like Virus, SuperNova, etc. Maybe in some ways it was the synth that made trance possible? But yes they can be picked up pretty inexpensively -- I think Roland made a lot of them. I know Prodigy used to use these (they aren't technically a psytrance band but they always used a lot of resonant/distorted filter-esque sounds, so maybe it speaks to the versatility of the JP-8xxx somewhat).

I've toyed with the idea of picking one up, mostly for nostalgia sake, but most of the people I know that own the hardware boards have made the move to soft synths due to getting same (or better) results in an easier to work with form. You can certainly find them at a good deal though!

Do you feel the hypersaw on the Virus C is not capable of living up to the supersaw available in soft synths or the Ti2? I'm interested in this because maybe you saw another post where I was hoping to find a polyphony/voice count comparison of a Snow versus a C with the same patch.

But yes, Zebra is quite capable of this kind of sound. Another one that might surprise you, that I think you already own is FM8. Nobody thinks of FM synthesis when they think of the supersaw sound, but it is definitely capable, it just achieves the sound a slightly different way. If you dig through some of the trancelead patches on FM8 I think you'll see what I mean. Warmth isn't really the best characteristic of FM synthesis, but you can always layer it with the timbres of another synth if needed.

I think the supersaw is an interesting sound, mostly because it is such a processing-heavy type of sound, one that older analog gear wasn't really capable of, so in a way it is kind of iconic of the mid-late 90s, a time period which I see as kind of a "comeback period" for synths. For a time during the 90s, it seemed like everyone in popular music was going unplugged/acoustic and synthesizers were getting neglected. A handful of bands like Depeche Mode and Nine Inch Nails were keeping them relevant throughout that period, at least here in the USA, with the exception of course of dance club music. Then VA gear came onto the scene and brought a new sound to the table, and the supersaw was one of the iconic elements of that sound.

Really though, I think the basic supersaw sound is kind of boring by itself... just lots of detuned oscillators. It's things like the envelopes/LFOs and how it's used in the music that matters.

From a pure synth perspective, it's kind of an important type of sound I think, because a synth that has the power to do a nice supersaw typically has the power to do almost any other kind of sound. Yet there are synths that do every other kind of sound, but just don't have the raw power to do a proper supersaw.

[TweakHead]

Well, the Virus C can only approach this. As the oscillators themselves aren't capable of producing a raw supersaw wave. But you can get near that sound for sure. The hypersaw oscillator is only available on ti, ti2 and snow - and I was asking this because I think it was access's way of bringing this sound into the virus. I think with a couple of sawtooth waves detuned apart and making good use of the unison one gets close enough, maybe a touch of EQ as well, to bring the highs up a bit - maybe then a touch of chorus and reverb. But think the ti range of virus is much more capable of doing this, since it can pack a couple of waves together at oscillator level like the real deal - just don't know how close it is to the Rolands.

FM can surely sound similar to this sound. One oscillator modulated by a fast one will get some very juicy harmonics and the fast movement - which is similar to the supersaw. One must find the sweet spots though - one of the things I really like about Virus's FM btw. And you're right, also use FM8 a lot - actually couldn't live without it tbh. I'm a big fan of FM. Lately I've been crazy about analogue kind of FM to, sounds different but it's so cool there's days I'd kill for it. One of the interesting ways to go there would be the euro rack - so much stuff one can do with that.

Also heard that a decent analogue with FM capabilities going through the mooger fooger ring modulator produces the kind of eargasm that you easily forget the money you spent for it eheh.

Oh, and our beloved Monark can to a very good emulation of analogue FM. Also, have you guys heard about Aalto synth?

http://www.madronalabs.com/products/aalto

some sounds you get out of this, you can't find in anything software so far. it's kind like the buchla sound, very very cool

[Timo]

If you have an iPad and are after a really great JP supersaw sound, check out BeepStreet Sunrizer. Gives you a JP80x0 effectively for £7.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sunr...443663267?mt=8

Fantastic supersaws on that lil' app, and a whole more besides. Loads of usable sounds, has a nicely refined polished sound to it. The morph wheel is really great too.

[TweakHead]

Originally Posted by Timo

If you have an iPad and are after a really great JP supersaw sound, check out BeepStreet Sunrizer. Gives you a JP80x0 effectively for £7.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sunr...443663267?mt=8

Fantastic supersaws on that lil' app, and a whole more besides. Loads of usable sounds, has a nicely refined polished sound to it. The morph wheel is really great too.

don't have the ipad, but saw a video on youtube and it surely does sound good!!

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by Timo

If you have an iPad and are after a really great JP supersaw sound, check out BeepStreet Sunrizer. Gives you a JP80x0 effectively for £7.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/sunr...443663267?mt=8

Fantastic supersaws on that lil' app, and a whole more besides. Loads of usable sounds, has a nicely refined polished sound to it. The morph wheel is really great too.

Thanks, I might check that one out after I get tired of Korg iPolySix. I bought it when it was still $15 but have not given it adequate playtime.

It's quite good, but I think my fingers are old school and crave a real keyboard, because the only time I find myself firing it up are if I'm traveling or something and find myself in the hotel room, board. Most likely waiting for the girlfriend to finish her hair and makeup and emerge ready from the bathroom! lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE7oF9joTBU

[TweakHead]

But there's always underground and mainstream. It's just that some producers get tired of being "in the shadows", putting to much work into their music for a small niche of people who appreciate it and probably download the music from the web for free. The way I see it, it's just some musicians that get seduced by the lights of fame, success, the chance to make real money from their work. There's some very bad examples of that. I think there's a band with a name similar to this forum that rings a bell.

But while there's a whole pack of artists in psytrance that started good and then turned to more cheesy commercial music, there's still a very diversified underground scene and music going. What we sometimes feel is that it has changed and we can never get that element of surprise back. But that's mostly us that have changed. It used to be new for us, now it isn't. But there's always new people coming in and their amazement is very similar to what we've felt back then. It's only different.

And while we can go on talking about the specifics of a given genre, I feel trance is like a state of mind that can be achieved through music and sharing the experience with other people. That's just as good a possibility as it was when it all started, the rest of it is just trends, labels, organizers and their greed levels - sometimes it goes of the charts, sometimes you find good stuff. Take a look at this events, for example: boom festival and ozora festival. The atmosphere in there is just amazing. Just an example.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by TweakHead

But there's always underground and mainstream. It's just that some producers get tired of being "in the shadows", putting to much work into their music for a small niche of people who appreciate it and probably download the music from the web for free. The way I see it, it's just some musicians that get seduced by the lights of fame, success, the chance to make real money from their work.

I also think there is a tendancy to like or appreciate something just because it is "underground" or off the beaten path. We see it as rare (and I guess it is)... it's sort of like when an artist (musical or otherwise) dies and the value of their work skyrockets simply because they're dead, even if nobody cared for their work when they were alive.

I've found myself somewhat of a "victim" of this syndrome too during certain periods of my life. I remember being a fan of The Cure way before most people knew who they were. When they gained mainstream popularity, yes their sound got a little more approachable but it was still good and still worthy of The Cure label. Many folks complained about how they sold out, but the truth is success came to them because they earned it, they never really changed. It was just the perception by those who liked the "elite" feeling of being part of some underground fan base -- they didn't like feeling encroached on by the public. Their private garden had been invaded, their feeling of superiority over society compromised!

What I mean is that we don't have to stop enjoying a band or genre just because other people are onto it. But we have a tendancy to do just that.

It used to be that there were very real consequences of a band going mainstream and getting a hit in the Top 40. In North America, in the 80s and 90s, that meant you were going to hear the same some played over and over on the radio, to the point where you would be sick of anything that came from that band going forward.

But these days, most folks I think listen to Pandora, iPods, SiriusXM and the like, which has made that much less of an issue.

But on the flipside of that, sometimes bands or artists do change. Sometimes they do their best or at least most creative work in their younger years, when they are fueled by alcohol and drug abuse .... then when they get older and have families to support or are suffering health problems from all the booze, their creative edge dissipates and they mostly just live off the name they established early on. Then again there are some old dudes that really come up with some nice surprises. Did you ever hear Johnny Cash cover the song "Hurt" by Nine Inch Nails?

[Berni]

I actually don't think there is much of an underground anymore with the advent of digital media & the internet. You can go from obscurity to viral in a very short space of time, which means new trends tend to come & go like fashion which is a bit sad, the ideas & artists never get chance to mature & get snapped up by labels wanting to cash in on the next musical fad of the month before they have time to & are replaced by (insert next dumb music genre here).
@the man behind the curtain - I hate the bastard that gave The Cure anti depressants!