Namm 2013

[Berni]

Originally Posted by namnibor

Okay, I will bite...I ALSO predict that EVEN if Access releases a new, revolutionary product, BERNI will not be happy with it one way or another!! I already have a few thousand invested with Access and being a rather "old school" hardware kind of guy, the Ti function is not something I would utilize and I have all the wavetable areas covered with my Waldorf Microwave and XT and Blofeld. My next purchase will either be Waldorf's Pulse 2 now-slated for Spring '13 release or a pet unicorn--whichever comes firstly! HA!

Well you got that right, I doubt I would ever give access my money again except if they came out with something that Timo described & even then it would be a long way down the road.
Funnily enough I held off buying my TI for the longest time because when it was initially released the RTAS plug in format was not supported & I use pro tools as my main DAW. With hind sight I should have held off about 4 years which is the time it took them to get the bloody thing working properly. I love my virus but access as a company...not so much.

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by TweakHead

Yes, I can totally relate to that. Getting a ti2 first hand is a big buck if it fails to deliver what's advertised. There's some people saying it's working better with the latest beta version of the software. I'm actually interested in that kind of feedback, as I wouldn't really like to go through the same kind of story you just described. Which reminds me, does the new oscilators work in stand alone version? The hypersaw, wavetables, granular, so forth and so on? And what about the fx? 'Cause it's got plenty more then on my C. I think I wouldn't mind to have on of the new ones if only I could manage to at least use the new features with the hardware. So are they only accessible from the software?

Hopefully someone else can chime in on the answers to these. Its been several years since I bought the Ti2 (then returned it within my 30 day window), and some of these features I believe may have been added after that fact. Actually some of the reasons I returned it may have been addressed, but I have not seen enough evidence of that to be inspired to risk another purchase -- I keep waiting for the next model to be announced, or maybe at some point I will just get a snow so that at least I don't feel like I'm missing out.

[Timo]

Great to see the discussion has turned a little more cheerful and spirited.

My 2¢. Designable and morphable waveforms for both oscillators and LFOs along with designable multi-stage EGs like Zebra2, which looks incredible, but with the sound of the Virus, would definately have me selling a good few things in order to grab one.

I remember Marc once stating that editable waveforms/wavetables was one of the top feature requests after the TI was originally launched, but that it would never happen on the TI|1 or 2 due to limitations of the hardware. Whether he was referring to the need for additional dedicated memory to be able to store such waveform data or similar I'm not sure.

Maybe even longer PCM waveforms.

Would love to see an additional dedicated modulation (step) sequencer or two, with selectable curves for each 'step', akin to NI Massive's "perf" performance editor. Would be amazing if you could also 'morph' from one sequence to another.

Some more filter emulations maybe.

Hardware wise I would love to see more hands-on performance modulation controls like an XY pad for scratching, tapping/gating, sweeping, etc.

And of course USB2 HighSpeed, or USB3.

I think these would be a genuine step up from the TI|2.

'Dear Santa...'

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by Timo

I remember Marc once stating that customisable waveforms was one of the top feature requests after the TI was originally launched, but that it would never happen on the TI|1 or 2 due to limitations of the hardware. Whether he was referring to the need for additional dedicated memory to be able to store such waveform data or similar I'm not sure.

Would love to see an additional dedicated modulation (step) sequencer or two, with selectable curves for each 'step', akin to NI Massive's "perf" performance editor.

I can only guess here, but regarding it not being possible on the TI hardware -- if we look at the way waveforms are edited and morphed, or also perhaps the way MSEGs are edited (MSEG are sort of the Zebra equivalent of a modulation step sequencer with tweakable curves, lengths etc), and we imagine trying to do that without a mouse+keyboard and a nice screen and using simply synth knobs and display.... well it would not be very productive.

In the late 80s I had a Kawai K5 that attempted to do exactly this. The K5 was an additive synth and the harmonics could be edited similar to what you see in the Zebra demo video. Problem was, that using the hardware controls, this was quite a challenge. The K5 had buttons and a dial.. in general buttons navigated the various parameters, while the dial changed the value for that parameter. The large dial was actually very effective... much more so than knobs... at making very fine adjustments to values. However the reality of sculpting sounds is that while it was okay for making small tweaks to existing sounds, it would take forever to just start with a basic sound and build it up into something usable.

To the rescue of owners of the Atari ST (which was an awesome music production computer back then, it had built in MIDI ports), we had something called "Dr. Ts K5 Editor/Librarian" (they had Dr T editors for many different synths like the DX7). In the case of the K5, this allowed us to draw the harmonics and edit the other parameters using the mouse, which was an enormous productivity boon.

So, you can see where this is headed, there is the hardware limitation -- if only one of many limitations, it is a huge one.

But why not just put the tricky stuff into Virus Control? Anything thats cumbersome with knobs, put it in the plugin.

Well from this point on I can only speculate, but I personally think the whole software movement is seen as a major threat to the product line. If Access were to make critical features of the Virus available only in software, people would start wondering why they need the hardware at all if it's simply a way to play notes and chords and tweak some stuff realtime using cutoff pots or pitch/mod wheel.

Backup to the 80's again for a minute. In those days, CPUs were simply not fast enough to viably take the actual synthesis off the Kawai K5 and put it onto the same computer where the sound editing took place (heh! Imagine all of the timing issues that would solve if we could, since MIDI latency is always a bitch). However, in 2012, not only are the CPUs powerful enough to do this, but a single CPU in a typical teenagers $300 laptop has processing power that exceeds the DSP in the Virus. This was not the case a dozen or so years ago when the Virus was at the peak of earning its reputation.

So, I think software synthesis, that does not rely on an "expensive dongle" (essentially what I felt like my Ti2 was), is really enemy #1 to Access. When they can capitalize on reputation and the visual image of the Virus as an instrument instead of a low powered computer, they will continue to do so until the public catches on. Ride it out until its over, right?

What is baffling to me is why they do not embrace these times of cheap and powerful processing and connectivity options like Thunderbolt and seize the opportunity to take existing momentum with total integration to the next level. The technology is there, yet they seem to be sitting with their thumbs up their arses admiring what they created 15 years ago. I of course could be very wrong about that, but this is how it seems to me on the surface.

It is a somewhat dark view of things, and I realize its only one opinion and perhaps not correct, but it seems to me there is no future roadmap, no exciting plans, just the sit on thumbs and ride it out as long as we can mentality.

On a somewhat more cheerful note, the worst that can happen is that I'm dead wrong and some interesting new iteration of the Virus is announced soon. In that case I will be happy that I made such an idiotic prediction and we will all have something interesting to talk about for a change instead of discussing what's NOT going on at Access.

[namnibor]

Originally Posted by MBTC

I can only guess here, but regarding it not being possible on the TI hardware -- if we look at the way waveforms are edited and morphed, or also perhaps the way MSEGs are edited (MSEG are sort of the Zebra equivalent of a modulation step sequencer with tweakable curves, lengths etc), and we imagine trying to do that without a mouse+keyboard and a nice screen and using simply synth knobs and display.... well it would not be very productive.

In the late 80s I had a Kawai K5 that attempted to do exactly this. The K5 was an additive synth and the harmonics could be edited similar to what you see in the Zebra demo video. Problem was, that using the hardware controls, this was quite a challenge. The K5 had buttons and a dial.. in general buttons navigated the various parameters, while the dial changed the value for that parameter. The large dial was actually very effective... much more so than knobs... at making very fine adjustments to values. However the reality of sculpting sounds is that while it was okay for making small tweaks to existing sounds, it would take forever to just start with a basic sound and build it up into something usable.

To the rescue of owners of the Atari ST (which was an awesome music production computer back then, it had built in MIDI ports), we had something called "Dr. Ts K5 Editor/Librarian" (they had Dr T editors for many different synths like the DX7). In the case of the K5, this allowed us to draw the harmonics and edit the other parameters using the mouse, which was an enormous productivity boon.

So, you can see where this is headed, there is the hardware limitation -- if only one of many limitations, it is a huge one.

But why not just put the tricky stuff into Virus Control? Anything thats cumbersome with knobs, put it in the plugin.

Well from this point on I can only speculate, but I personally think the whole software movement is seen as a major threat to the product line. If Access were to make critical features of the Virus available only in software, people would start wondering why they need the hardware at all if it's simply a way to play notes and chords and tweak some stuff realtime using cutoff pots or pitch/mod wheel.

Backup to the 80's again for a minute. In those days, CPUs were simply not fast enough to viably take the actual synthesis off the Kawai K5 and put it onto the same computer where the sound editing took place (heh! Imagine all of the timing issues that would solve if we could, since MIDI latency is always a bitch). However, in 2012, not only are the CPUs powerful enough to do this, but a single CPU in a typical teenagers $300 laptop has processing power that exceeds the DSP in the Virus. This was not the case a dozen or so years ago when the Virus was at the peak of earning its reputation.

So, I think software synthesis, that does not rely on an "expensive dongle" (essentially what I felt like my Ti2 was), is really enemy #1 to Access. When they can capitalize on reputation and the visual image of the Virus as an instrument instead of a low powered computer, they will continue to do so until the public catches on. Ride it out until its over, right?

What is baffling to me is why they do not embrace these times of cheap and powerful processing and connectivity options like Thunderbolt and seize the opportunity to take existing momentum with total integration to the next level. The technology is there, yet they seem to be sitting with their thumbs up their arses admiring what they created 15 years ago. I of course could be very wrong about that, but this is how it seems to me on the surface.

It is a somewhat dark view of things, and I realize its only one opinion and perhaps not correct, but it seems to me there is no future roadmap, no exciting plans, just the sit on thumbs and ride it out as long as we can mentality.

On a somewhat more cheerful note, the worst that can happen is that I'm dead wrong and some interesting new iteration of the Virus is announced soon. In that case I will be happy that I made such an idiotic prediction and we will all have something interesting to talk about for a change instead of discussing what's NOT going on at Access.

Yes, Kawai broke it's back in making it's final synthesizer, the K5000S, which is an additive synthesizer that's actually pretty deep but otherworldly sounds abound. It literally broke their financial backbone because people did not want to spend the time it took to make usable sounds. I think Camel Audio's Alchemy comes really close to making that a better visual and easier programming interface, which is also kind of like morphing a Wavestation into the mix as well.
The evolution of softsynths *may* be also part of the motivator of the resurgence of real analog making a comeback. As Stephen King wrote, "Sometimes, they come back..."

[MBTC]

Originally Posted by namnibor

Yes, Kawai broke it's back in making it's final synthesizer, the K5000S, which is an additive synthesizer that's actually pretty deep but otherworldly sounds abound. It literally broke their financial backbone because people did not want to spend the time it took to make usable sounds. I think Camel Audio's Alchemy comes really close to making that a better visual and easier programming interface, which is also kind of like morphing a Wavestation into the mix as well.
The evolution of softsynths *may* be also part of the motivator of the resurgence of real analog making a comeback. As Stephen King wrote, "Sometimes, they come back..."

I own Alchemy and think highly of it overall, but for whatever reason it has not worked itself into my music as much as some of my other soft synths. I know it does additive, but doesnt it require you to import the custom waveform rather than giving on the spot editing?

One nice aspect of Zebra is that you can easily redraw the harmonic timbres on the spot as you listen. I loaded up a few other plugins I own, and I was surprised how few of them really let you do this. KarmaFX does and Harmor does (Harmor is very interesting in the sense it lets you import an audio sample, then synthesize it, allowing you to edit the synthesized sample!)

One plugin I have called Morphine is a dedicated additive synth that really feels like the spritual successor to the Kawai K5 at least with regard to the way you edit sounds. However just like the K5 it feels like one of those synths that is very impressive on paper, but the real-world sounds you tend to get out of it in practice tend to leave you wanting. At least that's how I always felt about my K5...

[TweakHead]

Will check those out for sure.. Thanks

[TweakHead]

Back to topic.

As far as would-like-to-see-features, Timo's pretty much nailed it. That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see coming to the virus to. And let's not forget, the LFO's could get into audio range to, and be usable as FM sources. That would make a very special kind of beast eheh and how about having atomizer as an fx that could be sequenced for the synth parts, with arp as mod for example? stutter and glitchy stuff, extend the vocoder like that also, trigger presets from midi, like NI's Finger for Reaktor (since we're dreaming here, this are my 20 cents, I figured it's a bit more expensive...)
cheers

[namnibor]

Yes, Timo has nailed great features. I had thought also of the X/Y joystick for wave morphing too, but found out something interesting from person have been communicating with at Dave Smith Instruments in that the reason you do not SEE very many, if any "X/Y Joysticks" on anything BUT Korg's predominately, is that Korg OWNS the patent rights to the X/Y Joystick in it's physical form--did not know about the use thereof in the virtual synth sense. This came up because some of DSI's team to this day were working for firstly yamaha then korg in developing the Wavestation synths after SCI went away and before DSI's incarnation--was talking to them about how assigning the sysex/midi cc's of certain parameters in Evolver to be manipulated by being assigned to the Korg Kontrol 49 I have used to control my Wavestation SR with would be a cool feature to have been incorp. in Evolver from onset....that's when it came up about how korg has a tight grip (mind the pun) on patent of it's use....interesting things one finds out down the walk of knowledge. BTW--if The Solaris Synth has an X/Y Joystick, Don has worked "intimately" with Korg for a while and given The Solaris having a very limited customer base. I just cannot get the same responsiveness out of an X/Y Touchpad for life of me!!
I mentioned this because it made me wonder how crazy it must be for any given softsynth to obtain an international patent on a given synthesis method and with that said, wonder if Total Integration has a fine gray line of seperation from "hardware controller" and "software"? A nerd of sorts would like to know

[MBTC]

Thats amazing that Korg could possibly owns a patent on something that I'm pretty sure the Wright brothers used to control the first airplane!

Seriously though, I would not have guessed... wonder when the patent expires?

I just realized, I've never even had my hands on a Roland D Beam to see how they compare.

With just about any DAW and soft synth, its easy enough to map to an Xbox controller, and it's quite responsive even with a wireless controller. Yet, even as easy as it is to do I find myself not doing that much.