DAW discussions
 

I didn't want to pollute the existing Ableton Live 9 thread with a bunch of stuff about a prior version (8.4), so I created a new one.

In recent years, I've been using FLStudio on the PC and Logic Pro on the Mac, with a greater emphasis on PC.

Logic is good in many ways, but even as a developer of software for Apple's systems, I've come to have deep distrust for Apple and their handling of their software products.

FLStudio is excellent, but it is PC only, it is largely maintained by a single guy who is talented but a pompous asshole, and if he were to ever get run over by a truck or get his arse severely kicked for some of the stuff he says to people, or even if he just decides to retire, then that would be the end of that particular product. It is written in Delphi which is unfortunate on so many levels. No reasonable chance of porting to other platforms, and not many developers left out there that care enough about Pascal to even fill the open positions to do so. As a music creation tool, it deserves the top-rank it consistently holds on KVR host software rankings, and pay-once upgrade-for-life is such a tremendous value that it does not even need to be explained.

I decided sometime back that I need to think more about the future, and settle on a DAW that will unconditionally be there long-term. I want it to be runnable on Mac or PC (I don't care about Linux and I doubt you do either), so that my hardware options are not limited.

So that got me looking at Ableton Live and Cubase. Hearing such good success stories about hardware integration with Cubase (specifically the Virus control software) really got my interest. However, Ableton seems to have gotten a lot of momentum, those who use it really love it, and I see all of the Ableton-specific HW controllers out there and its very clear this DAW is onto something. They both meet my criteria in terms of having a future, and working the same on either platform.

So I tried a lite version of Live 8.4, and ran into some issues with popping/crackling with certain synths that was not an issue in FLStudio on same PC, same audio interface, same buffer size settings. I have not given up on this, because I think its something about my config that Ableton doesn't like, it is not some limitation of the software itself.

Shortly after that, I downloaded the Cubase trial and was instantly smitten. I must confess that Cubase on the Atari ST was the first sequencing software I ever used, so that may explain one reason I had an instant positive reaction to it. Starting up with any new DAW software involves a learning curve; along the learning trail there are lots of things that seem counter-intuitive, but that was true of my recent stint with Live, and it was true about FLStudio when I was first learning my way around it. The pops and clicks with CPU-heavy soft-synths are still worse in Cubase than in FLS, but significantly less of a problem compared to my specific installation of Live 8.4.

First impressions of Cubase vs. Ableton Live are that if I were performing live in any way (DJ-ing or in a band), I would most likely prefer Ableton's workflow. I also see how the workflow in Live leads to some creative possibilities that would need to be approached differently in Cubase. But perhaps the problem is that *I think sequentially*? In other words, for writing and arranging music, Cubase feels more natural to me (as I said, could be due to my Atari ST roots, or the fact that it is more like FLS and Logic than Ableton is). For general remixing, DJ-ing, and combining of clips in real-time Ableton wins (also points for cramming a lot onto a single window, a plus if mobile on a laptop but kind of a negative for my home studio).

So at this point I'm wondering if that last paragraph above is true for everyone? Or, is it a side-effect of not having spent enough time yet with Live and Cubase to fully evaluate their use? Or maybe I'm just an old dog that is hard to teach new tricks?

I came from Atari Cubase also, Used cubase PC until I swapped to Ableton for the last few years.
Don't miss Cubase at all, except a few midi things. Like drawing a straight line over note velocity (cubase) instead of free hand drawing of velocity (Live).
New things in live outweigh the missing things in my world, I still like to do full arrangement view creation instead of the clip view.

You mean you use arrangement view for everything? That might have been part of what seemed unintuitive to me, the tutorials I was watching focused more on clip view, and to me that's more useful for triggering clips and scenes that you've already put together some other way. But starting from a blank slate, the Cubase way of doing things (which is a lot like FLStudio and many others) seems more like how I think.

Also curious what you mean about drawing a straight line over note velocity?

Thanks

I tend to use the arrangement view most of the time & use the session view as a sketch pad to throw ideas around in. If you are more used to the linear style of arrangement then it's the way to go.

I may take another look at it from that angle, I need to figure out what's causing the audio issue in Live vs. other hosts. The session view was nifty but not that useful to me, I can do that kind of stuff with Maschine and FLStudio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xQFvvzqQYk (or actually I guess I could probably do it strictly with Maschine). So many DAWs, not enough time :confused:

Sometimes use clip view at the beginning of a remix or something, then press record using launching of rows, that takes them to the arrangement view. From there you can do longer filter moves and be more finicky with overdubs and such.

I meant drawing velocities on pre existing midi notes, like snare rolls. In Cubase you could drag a line, straight or parabolic, even LFO shapes over velocity data.

Yeah, understanding how I was going to deal with automation (during the times I draw it rather than record it) was one of the first things I learned how to do in Cubase because I use it so frequently.

I think I understand what you're saying about Live... I had to go into Live 8 and try it out. I didn't see a way to draw a line, but I think you mean something like a velocity ramp sloping up left to right that's "linearly perfect", is that correct? If you resize the window in Ableton to a ridiculous height temporarily, you can get it very close with the mouse (close enough that it would look perfect when you make the window smaller and the sound would be indistinguishable from a perfect line). Maybe I'm not following you though.

Yeah, once I play around with arrangement view more, it definitely feels easier to get used to. One thing I will say about Live, if dealing with limited screen space (i.e. gigging on a laptop for example), the UI layout feels better designed for that. I need lots of pixels and I think Cubase works well on a big/dual monitor(s), but it tends to rely more on separate windows like FLStudio than Ableton which keeps things docked and tidy. For my (existing) workflow, the big screen approach works best. Maybe that will change in the future... I can see how the screen space usage is important for those on the go.

One thing that made it kind of an unfair contest -- my Ableton version is "lite", which means it is not time limited but came with very limited (i.e. crappy) instruments. Cubase on the other hand is a trial (only 30 days), but fully functional, and it's got some killer instruments and tools.

One thing that sucks is Cubase seems to release new versions often and they're going to ding me on the upgrades -- hope they're worth it. That's one thing about FLStudio... pay once and that's it... forever, unless you want to buy more of their plugins (some of which are good). I bought it many versions ago around 2007 yet still run the latest version. From what I can tell Ableton doesn't upgrade or ding as often, which I think is a good thing.

You can use one (session) or the other (arrangement) or both, they are not mutually exclusive. Once you get your head around the idea you realise what a really creative tool live is...& then you get into the routing possibilities...

I definitely see the creative aspect. The CPU usage (which might be a problem that's limited to VST wrapping on the PC only) is a big concern of mine. Unfortunately this "lite" version I have only allows me to add up to four instruments, so I cannot really put it to the test beyond adding a few heavy CPU eating synths and comparing. I wish they would just give me either a limited trial like Cubase, or something with a more logical functional limitation (like the FLStudio trial lets you do anything you want except save a project).

I did a little research on this, and apparently the CPU use picture on the PC does not seem to get much better. One guy was saying he can load an identical project side by side in Live and Cubase, and the CPU usage is 60% in Live and 15% in Cubase. That's really a big deal for the way I work, CPU for VSTs is everything and is really the only reason I have a need for hardware synths (other than the fact I like them). Again, could be a PC thing only and a non-issue on the Mac.

You can try the fully working suite version for free for 30 days :)
https://www.ableton.com/en/trial/

Nice! Thanks, I missed that, good to know and I will definitely check it out. It even says I can run it side by side with existing 8 install without impact.

Yeah they are both seperate beasts. I have 8 & 9 on my computer with no conflicting issue's.

Installed Ableton 9 trial -- awesome that it let's me install without activating (i.e. I'm not limited to 30 days, I just can't save or import, which is fine for my learning tests).

Now the bad news -- still getting bad performance with VSTs on this particular PC.

The test:

Start a new project with nothing else CPU dependent going on.

Load an instance of Massive into a track, load the factory patch 1991, and play down a note like C1 for about 2-3 bars or so for a constant note (holding it down).

Duplicate the instance of Massive about 12-13 times into new tracks, keeping same patch and midi data. Experiment with buffer size around 512 or so. Cubase and FLStudio will start giving up pops around the 13th instance, while Ableton starts popping on #7 and completely shat the bed on maybe 8 or 9th instance of Massive.


Can anyone with a PC and at least a mid range processor, with Cubase (any version) and Ableton (any version) see if they get same?


Berni it would be interesting to know your results with same too, although I suspect this is somehow related to Ableton's liking of PC audio drivers so I think you will get an entirely different result.

Yes, correct, and you get used to 'sounds right' and get on with it. Maybe I listen more and get a more organic results.

Update - bought Cubase 7 and my copy came with one of the CMC hardware controllers (actually made by Yamaha for Steinberg). The one that came with Cubase is the CH model (controls things like track switch, automation, volume, panning... awesome touch slider!). It takes all of 60 seconds from plugging the thing in to see how much effect it will have on my workflow. Loved it so much that I ordered the CMC-AI one (the one with the knob where you hover the mouse over any knob on the screen and the knob controls that).

Also, I guess nobody has had a chance to try the above CPU test?

Well seeing how u have both Cubase & Live on your machine it looks like your in the perfect position to do some A/B comparisons of both DAW's. Would be interesting to hear your findings. Having said that Cubase is as old as the hills & Live 9 has only been out a few weeks so at this stage it might be a bit unfair to compare the 2.
I personally tend to use the track freeze function in Live so I generally dont use a lot of instances of any plug-in at any one time. If I have time over the weekend I'll give it a go though & see how many Massives I can stack up, Lol.

In terms of overall sound quality, there's no real difference in sound between Cubase and Live. If any difference showed up under scrutiny, it would more likely be a result of differences in levels or default settings of the DAW or maybe even something I inadvertently tweaked along the way. In terms of the pops and crackles, the CPU use is a different story; it could be limited to the PC version as well. I was really convinced it was my own PC until I got out and did some reading, and it seems like other folks experienced similar plugin performance. But yeah you're right, if your workflow lends itself to freezing/bouncing, CPU use becomes almost a non-issue. This is actually one of the main reasons I wanted to go to another DAW, because I just don't like the way it is done in FLStudio -- more cumbersome than just right-clicking the track in Live or clicking the freeze icon to the left of the track in Cubase. In FLStudio you're doing basically the same thing, but because the patterns (sort of like clips) are a whole different beast than the mixer, you have to do the freezing on the mixer track which I find to be counter-intuitive.

For me though I like to minimize freezing where I can, because otherwise it will go something like this: Add monster CPU eater like Diva and play a lead. Sounds good, freeze it and come back later.... but then when I come back later, I've got so much other shit going on that unfreezing Diva is not even possible, I won't even be able to hear it without freezing lots of other stuff. So, too much of that can get in the way too.

Maschine is a nice tool to have here too though... can do all percussion on Maschine (I actually keep the Maschine editor open on a separate monitor) and just drag and drop the bounced clips into the DAW (works on all DAWS I think).

Right now though I'm loving these CMC controllers for Cubase! Game changer devices for me.

Yeah I am loving the maschine/Live combo. Probably would have gone for the Push controller for Live if I didn't already have the Maschine but it is so versatile & also works stand alone & all my NI stuff is mapped to it which I wouldn't get with Push.
Got Komplete 9 coming this thursday...can't wait to play around with the synth to end all synth's, Lol. I have a feeling it is going to be somewhat of a disappointment if the hype is to be believed. Really looking forward to trying out the new Battery though, my favourite drum sampler.

I am going to get Komplete at some point. Between Cubase and all the tools it comes with and the UltraNova, I've probably got enough toy overload. Plus there are some synths that come with Cubase that are amazing in themselves I need to learn. There's one called Padshop -- unbelievable granular synthesis! I will use this a lot. Then there is Halion which is very underrated, first impressions are it can compete with Nexus and Omnisphere.

Does Battery work with Maschine (I'm sure it does but maybe I should ask if it is seamlessly integrated?) If so I would probably use that a lot. Also comes with Komplete, right?

I know what you mean about gear overload, I've barely scratched the surface of all the new stuff that Live 9 comes with but the upgrade from my old Komplete bundle is so irresistably cheap it's hard to pass on it. I probably wont use a lot of it but I do use Battery in just about all my productions & the new features & enhancements it comes with make it worth the asking price alone, for me at least, everything else is just gravy & everything is optimized to work with Maschine. Will have to wait & see how well Battery 4 works with Maschine. Also it comes with the one synth to rule them all so I don't think I can go wrong for a buck fifty :)

You won't go wrong for sure. All of that is easily integrated into anyone's productions, better still if you're familiar with their products.

The product that gets me really excited is Reaktor. I was hoping they'd be releasing version 6 for this one, but I guess it's to soon for them to do that, as Core technology still has a lot to offer - things like Razor and Monark. There's a lot of usable stuff in their user library one can get (for free) and build stuff like you would with a Nord Modular. I dare say the sound quality hangs in there with that, and if you're crazy enough like me, you can use core cells and dig your way into building some modules, like oscillators and filters - and learn a ton along the way.

What I'd really like to see is some option to connect existing modules fast, when more complexity is not needed, like you do on the Nord, and something within the lines of Maschine but more synth oriented...

But all in all, go for it! Max is very much like Reaktor to, and also has the convenience of being multi-platform and easy to share. It's a similar concept. And yeah, Native Instruments and Ableton both offer deep complexity for those geek enough (or crazy) to dig it, and also the hands on, intuitive, very streamlined, with tons of options, kind of setups. Hats off to both (and the prices).

If you like modular soft synths you might like KarmaFX. Very easy to use, cost effective, and has great visualization/animations showing what it is you're creating.

http://karmafx.net

Yep, I've looked at it. Maybe I'll buy it. Do you have it? Could you perhaps send me a few samples of some of your wildest patches? Would really like to know how it sounds, and I find most demos have some kind of public in mind that isn't me - if that even makes sense. Some synthesizers I really like, like Disco DSP Discovery Pro, have demos on their website that sound to lame for my ears, compared to the sounds I can get out of it. But that's mostly a matter of taste, anyways. But if you could do it, would be grateful ;)

Cheers

There are some sound demos on the page below. I do own it, but to be honest I haven't loaded it up in something like 2 years -- not because it's anything other a great synth, but because I've been completely revamping the home studio, and I don't even have the synth loaded on the newly set up PC yet. Working with modular synths takes more time and my priorities have been on other things lately, so synths with simple controls have been getting more use from me.

There are some sound demos here, and you can also download the demo for the synth itself. Some (free but donation supported) plugins can be downloaded from there too. I recommend playing around with the demo to see if you like the patch-construction process. It's like other great synths in the sense that demo patches never really show you what its capable of as it applies to your situation. The great thing about soft synths is the try before you buy aspect. Even if I sent some patches that appeal to me, the probability that they will be exactly what you're looking for is really slim.

I personally like some of the sounds that "MadGonzo" (guy that did some of the demo MP3s) gets out of it, but they may not be your musical style. I will say you can get everything from bread and butter to extremely electronic sounds out of it. Also you don't have to get insanely deep with it, you can always use an existing sound that gets close to what you want as a starting point and just tweak it a little. It's just that modular synths add so much flexibility that sometimes the possibilities are mind boggling.

http://karmafx.net/?id=1

I just realized that on my "general purpose PC" (which I use for general web use, development work, gaming etc.) I was able to more than double the workload above with no popping or crackles in FL Studio (I do not have Cubase installed on this PC). Literally 30 instances of Massive, the CPU use goes up to 75% or so but no signs of popping even with the buffer set to 2ms latency!

The processor in this PC is a little faster overall than the music PC I mentioned above, but not twice as fast or anywhere close to that level of difference. At this link you can see the basic CPU performance of the two PCs in various applications compared side by side:

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/45?vs=107

Looks like I have some serious investigating to do here. Wish me luck.

Even if you can't get it to work like a mad scientist computer, you can still freeze tracks, have the presets and midi in reserve - if you need further adjustments and take it from there. Those instances of Massive, I take it for granted they're very simple ones, right? If you're talking something with unison and complex modulation, having 30 instances of that would totally bring shame to almost any computer I've used so far. And that latency is to low. I usually settle for a bigger buffer size and latency, 'cause I feel the machine has a bit more oxygen in it that way. Logic has the "delay compensation" for recordings, so it doesn't bother me at all - even for recordings. And I usually go as high as 130 tracks on most tracks - not all of that is midi, mind you.

One thing that makes a big difference is the disk you use, and if you have the chance to have a secondary drive with your samples and recordings in that one, it really boost the performance, big time! SSD hard drives work like a miracle to! Good luck!

Yes, the "1991" patch mentioned in my steps to repro is a very simple patch. To be honest, my primary PC can probably handle about 50 of these without giving something up. I got the idea for this particular test from this video which was done with an older version of Cubase:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcd7X3t6Cw

I think I'm beginning to zero in on the problem... My audio interface is Focusrite Saffire Pro 24 Firewire. The music PC in question has already been upgraded to Windows 8 64 bit. Lots of people with FW audio interfaces of various brands (RME, MOTU whatever) are saying that Windows 8 doesn't have a legacy firewire driver. Without the legacy driver, supposedly fireware audio interfaces under Windows are dicey at best. For example this one works, but I'm not getting the performance I should be. Focusrite lists this as a product that fully supports Windows 8 so it may be a matter of taking it up with them.

The PC I mentioned above that works properly is still on Windows 7, but more importantly the audio card is PCIe rather than firewire or USB.

I'm not pleased right now. I've spent the better part of my cumulative spare time and weekends over the past several weeks setting all this up, and if the answer turns out to be that I have to reformat the PC and go back to Windows 7, I'm probably going to just say fuck music for the next 6 months or so and focus on my other hobbies until the sting of wasted effort wears off, because I've spent way too much time tweaking, getting synths set up, getting the patch directories right, etc. Now I remember why I never pursued music making professionally. When something like a driver exclusion for an OS release can completely nullify a time investment like I've put in so far, then sorry but I've got other ways I'd rather spend my life :)

I've read of some options for getting the Windows 7 legacy Firewire driver working under Windows 8 so I'm going to investigate that as an option.

Plan B might just be to get a USB interface, even though it will cost me, if I put a dollar amount on my time per hour it might be the cheapest of the options.

Just an update here, which is kind of good and bad news.

The good news is that it does not appear to be Firewire related. I was able to tweak Windows 8 to use the Windows 7 legacy FW drivers, and after that made no difference I tried using the UltraNova built in USB interface, removing FW from the equation entirely and still getting the same result.

The bad news of course being I still have some investigating to do.

OK so I finally got around to doing the 'test' on my Macbook pro. I might add that I recently removed the optical drive & replaced it with a SSD drive & the difference in performance is amazing. If you really want peak performance I cannot recommend an SSD enough.
I started a new Live 8 session as Live 9 still has a few bugs that need fixing so I thought it would be better to use the more stable 8 version. I created a midi track with an instance of Massive with the '1991' patch on it & started duplicating it. At 20 tracks it was playing all instances fine, at 25 I was hearing some crackles & pops here & there...bit like one instance of the virus plug in, Lol. At 30 instances it was beginning to get too much & the fan on the processor started to gear up. Still not bad for a laptop computer I don't think. Watching the video, which was extremely painful & tedious ( just duplicate the track already ) I noticed that around a dozen instances it started to lose it. It also reminded me of why I would never go back to any of these programs or a PC for that matter, ugly cluncky shit if you ask me. Your issues probably are related to your soundcard as you say, hope this helps. :)

Thanks for doing the test, the results sound about right for a laptop, but that does highlight one reason I like desktops for home use -- heat issues and airflow are a big factor.

But whatever you do, don't think that video is representative of modern PCs. First off is the fact that he is running XP, an antiquated version of Cubase (new versions look better), and either he is dealing with a config problem like I currently am or his PC has about one third the power of a typical modern $500 PC. He also apparently doesn't realize he can just hit Alt-C to clone the instance of Massive in FLStudio, he could have done all that in 2-3 seconds (maybe he was doing it the slow way for sake of the video). I've got one foot in the Mac world and one foot in the PC world, so I could write a lot of stuff good and bad about both. For now at least, for my studio project, I had an extra Core i7 sitting around that needed a home, and comparing that to the cost of an equivalent Mac Pro setup was a no brainer. I think a lot of people still remember XP when they think of Windows. When I compare Windows 7 or 8 to OSX I think OS X feels clunky.. lol. Maybe its whatever you're used to.

PROBLEM SOLVED!!

Once I physically removed the Creative X-Fi XTreme PCI sound card, I am able to comfortably run 35+ instances of the above Massive test with no popping.

It seems that this PC just had too many audio interfaces (the sound card, the Saffire Pro24, the UltraNova interface, etc). The Creative card was in this system because it is a spare development PC I had laying around. It has a good Core i7 processor and plenty of RAM so I was trying to save a buck by re-commissioning an older PC to be my music, and for a while I thought that plan wasn't going to work. Thank god it wasn't a Windows 8 issue. I had tried disabling the Creative card via control panel, and it was showing it as disabled, but apparently that wasn't enough.

I'm thrilled with Cubase as my primary DAW for the time being... I'm already finding the hardware CMC controllers indispensible, but I do plan to re-visit Ableton now that I know the earlier popping problems were not entirely due to differences in DAW.

Glad you got it figured out. I was actually going to suggest taking the soundcards out of the equation & see how you go but you already got there. I would however question your preference of Cubase over Live as I don't think you gave Live enough time & it does take a while to get your head around the whole concept but once you do & start to realize the creative possibilities it has then all the other DAW's seem lacking. There are so many things it can do that non of the others can.
At the end of the day it's what works for you so go make some music! :)

Earlier, I mentioned that my preference might be rooted in Cubase for Atari ST circa 1988. I cut my MIDI teeth on the Atari ST, boards like Kawai K5, Yamaha TX81Z and DX7, Korg M3 etc., but the Atari ST and it's built-in MIDI had no equal at the time, and Cubase was the sequencer of choice. It looks almost nothing like it did back then but I guess there is some aspect of the workflow that "feels like home" to me, if that makes sense?

FLStudio always seemed to have a "get there quick" workflow for certain things, but there is something about the way it disjoints patterns from the mixer, particularly for doing simple things like freezing tracks, is counter-intuitive to me.

There were some things I liked instantly about Live, but I just like the overall feel of Cubase for now. I will keep the Live 8 Lite edition installed, as well as the Live 9 trial, and keep coming back to them over time. Consensus seems to be that Cubase is more CPU efficient, and this seems to be the case on my system but the difference is much less dramatic now that I've got things set up properly (maybe 10% or so better on Cubase... not enough to justify a switch, but I can certainly put that extra 10% to good use).

Almost all DAWs really do fundamentally the same thing, it just comes down to individual preferences. The CMC controllers for Cubase are fantastic, and I'm going to miss them whenever I'm working in FLStudio or Ableton so Steinberg did a good thing getting me hooked to those. They do a good job of making the DAW more musical by keeping your hands off the mouse and keyboard. At least now I have no shortage of DAWs installed, properly configured, and at least partially learned :). Tallying it all up, I now have: Cubase, FLStudio, Live8 Lite, Live9 in trial mode all on the PC, and Logic Pro on the Mac. If I can't make some music now, it can't be for lack of host options!

One thing nice about multiple hosts is that if something's not working in one, you can always drop out and try it in another. Why do I have a feeling that's going to come in handy whenever I get another Virus? ;)

Yeah I hear ya on all counts & true it is good to have a few options. I have Live, Pro tools & the Maschine so if something isn't working in one then see how you go in a different DAW. With all the different DAW's & plug in formats, not to mention platforms there are bound to be lots of variation.

I forgot to add Maschine to the list of DAWs, but yeah it definitely counts as one. I tend to use it sort of like a plug-in, but it can be a host all in itself. Cubase has a couple of plug-ins, one called Groove Agent (like a 16 pad drum machine that has a bunch of kits) and another called Beat Designer (like a step sequencer with cool editing features), that I may look into at some point, but I still like using Maschine for everything beat related. I keep the Maschine editor open on a secondary monitor, separate from the main host screen, then when I put something together I like I drop the audio into the host, rinse and repeat. I still have barely scratched the surface of what Maschine can do, I plan to revisit that one very soon as I plan to use it for pretty much all sampling needs.