Is a Virus TI for me?
 

Hi :-) I originally posted this on the official forum, but it seems pretty dead so I hope I'll have better luck here.

At the moment, I am in the market for a new synth.

My current setup is just a Korg R3 for whenever I feel like working on my patching skills, and an X50 as a preset machine. I also have Logic, but I'm not a huge fan of softsynths (IDK why) and I'm too lazy to learn Logic's synths interface ;P

Anyways, with my current setup there's pretty much nothing I find specifically lacking, except maybe the poly count on my R3. Regardless, I'm mainly looking for a different synth to find something with its own unique voice; something with it's own little variations in waveform characteristics and types, filter sound, effects, etc. You know, the way when you hear a sound you can tell a korg from a moog from a roland from a yamaha.

So I've been looking into the TIs again. There aren't nearly as many demos of the TIs on the series of tubes as I would like, but we've I've seen so far is pleasing.

My main concerns from watching demos are that it'll be too delay dependent and too clean. What I mean is that it seems like every single patch I've heard from the virus seems to be drowned in reverb and delay, which is perfect for genres like trance; but while I enjoy the generic trance/rave/dance genres they are not my personal type of music; they aren't what I create- I'm more into making genres that are more structure based, ranging from synthpop to generic dancepop to dubstep; genres that are meant for listening to more than dancing at a club. I'm afraid that patches not drowned in delays and reverb may sound terrible, considering how I have yet to hear patches not drowned in them.

My second fear is the too clean bit. I've listened to some supposedly 'dirty' patches, but to me, they all sound like they're being passed through a bit of high pass or negative EQ below the 1000z line. They've certainly got the scratchy, gritty high-end; it's the lack of growls and purring from the low end that bothers me.

What are your thoughts on these two things?

Should I decide a Virus is for me, I'm mainly considering between a Polar and a Snow. There are a few reasons why I'm afraid of the snow; I'm afraid the lack of knobs will tie me too much to using the 'softsynth' computer interface, I'm iffy about synths with no keybed of their own, and I'm afraid once I get it I'll want to upgrade to a better TI. This was my main mistake with my R3- a used Radias would've been definitely worth the extra $200-400. However, with the Polar and Snow it's much bigger numbers at play; a good $1k.

Anyways, thanks for any of your thoughts! :smile:

Just my two cents.. for the type of music you like to create, I think you'd find something like a used Triton, Karma, Motif etc more suitable. I think the Virus would be perfectly capable of creating the sounds I think you're after, but maybe not the optimal tool for that particular job, at it excels in trancy sounds I think.

To add a unique voice and to add a lot of variation to what you currently have, something like DSI Tetra (or multiple ones chained together!) might be a cost effective solution and would still be in line with the genres you're after.

I think the big appeal of the TI is the total integration feature -- and in my not-too-popular opinion, the USB support and DAW integration has been a let down to date, so if you do get a Virus you might want to pick up an Indigo or C or something off e-bay since it sounds like youre not a software guy anyway. At least that way you save some bucks and get a feel for whether the Virus is for you.

eh... I'm not really into sample keyboards. I look good old waveform synthesis, be it subtractive, FM, granular, etc. Making patches is the most fun part of digital music for me, and with a sample based keyboard... well, the samples are the majority of the patch right there, and all you have to do is either mess around with velocity and envelope settings, or just use presets.

This is terrible, but the main reason the ABCs don't appeal to me is because I HATE how they look. I know it's the sound that matters, but I'll never become attached to using those synths... especially the horrid red virus b. sorry if I've offended anyone that loves how they look!

As for the tetra, it does sound very sweet, but it's maybe a tad too vintage sounding for my preference. As a side note, I really, REALLY hate how DSI puts the push it button on their synths. It makes me feel like I'm playing with a Bop It! toy from my youth.

BTW- here are some samples of my music, so you can get a feel for what I do. None of them are finished and I'm still working on vocals for my music (even if I melodyne the hell out of my voice, I sound bad- unless I go for a full on chipmunk/glados-y thing).

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1715217/songdemo6.mp3 no worries, I'm removing those cheesy arps ;-)
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1715217/dnbunfinished.mp3
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1715217/gone.mp3
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1715217/Interlude_minimix.mp3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_W4L--ByME

Again, nothing finished or well-produced, but as you can see I hop between a few genres of music :-) A lot of my better work is still sitting in Logic, unbounced.

I'm not sure what to say then since you don't like trancey sounds and you dont like softsynths -- the latter would open up a tremendous amount of possibilities at a nice price point and give you all kinds of synthesis options. The possibilities with Zebra2 alone are endless.

I have problems (again!) with the official forum + opera/chrome and don't have IE installed atm so I can't really answer there (only one post in the last week or so)

Personally it's one of the first times I hear someone say the Virus is too precise in the highs and lacking in the lows :D people usually complain about how it aliases and how it sounds too bassy and ominous. Might just be the style of music you're used to that gives you a different perception in respect to other people. There's so many guys using it for the different "new" (not classic/acid) trance styles (that I hate to death) that interested people start thinking it's a trance only synth, forgetting its strengths and the other kinds of music it is used in (tip: depeche mode, NIN, h. zimmer, tool, dre all make different kinds of music)

If I were you I'd look for one to try out beforehand. I'm quite sure that a shop having one will let you try it since it means getting quite a bit of money :p I'd download the manual and the programming guide to learn a bit where the various functions are and what they do and then I'd "try to try it" if I could find a store that has it. To the very least, I'd look for someone nearby that can let me try his, or a shop that gives at least a 10 day refund formula (MBTC decided it was not his thing and got his money back and I think it was a good solution overall). this way you can try it and decide after creating some personal patches.

If you can't have much time with it and are only allowed a quick preset run, make sure you use the function to turn off all delays and reverbs (CONFIG button -> System 1/5 -> All Delays / All Reverbs = Disabled). It will clear your concerns about how the machine sounds without its wonderful FX. It will also turn some sounds to shit, those where the delay was used in a creative way like a resonator :p IIRC Devine's sounds are an example of this.

Other routes you could take are a DSI MEK (or a PEK) if you're looking for dirt (and not having the Push me! sequencer button). A Waldorf synth. A used Clavia Modular. It all comes down to what sounds you like more,
I'm not sure I'd advice an earlier Virus, given that I use some TI specific features (some of the distortions, wavetables, HS osc) a lot.

I'm also not sure what softsynths could make you change your mind - if you found the Virus too clinical in the highs I wouldn't go with Zebra (too muddy) Dune (either) or the Virus Wannabes (Z3ta+, Vanguard), but rather maybe some of the arturia V or memorymoon synths.

I see the Virus fitting into the bass/pads part of most of your examples (it probably boils down to mixing but I want more bass than that and the Virus delivers), even with its fx only and no external treatment (or very little, or whatever you got).
Modern dubstep relies heavily on postprocessing at the computer, heavy compression, lots of reverb, multiband distortion. No synth can do some of the sounds alone without external fx, cut/paste&mess-up in a recorder/daw - the "wobble" in your YT video is a good example: it sounds like it's straight out of the synth, so it hasn't many of the characteristics people look for in that music genre. It goes back to the post-recording-treatment before. That's why the majority of those producers work all ITB and with synths/fx that I would personally say sound like shit. It's not the raw sound counting.

My situation may not be applicable to the original poster though. His reservation is about the overall Virus sound and his impression of presets. In my case I had no problems with the Virus sound, it's just that I'm a DAW-based guy, so things like latency and the USB support were a deal-breaker for me. Also since I was listening to the Ti2 over USB, there was pretty much no sound benefit over a high-end softsynth (most people that rave about the sound of hardware over software are really talking about a straight signal from a box to the amp or their ears or whatever). If he does not feel comfortable with the trance-ish sound of the Virus, it gives me serious doubts whether its the synth for him. Like I said, it COULD make the sounds he wants, depending on how much he is into sound design, just seemed like he might be more of a preset-with-minor-tweaks type.

Keeping in mind what I just said above about presets, and depending on the OP's preference in that area, what you've said about those softsynths may be true. Howevever those who have not explored the vast amount of free sounds for Zebra have not even heard a fraction of what it is capable of. All I can say here is do not judge Zebra by the presets! It is an amazingly flexible synth, and things can be as muddy or as amazing as you want them! How the default EQing sounds on any one particular individual's monitors compared to the Virus is a different story, but that is easy enough to adjust with Zebra's built in tweaking. Dune can also sound fantastic, less flexible but dead-easy to program and you can get tons of sound with very little CPU. Sylenth1 is also a good one. Vanguard I have very little use for, Z3ta+ can sound good enough but is too much of a pain in the ass because of it's user interface.

oh no, sorry if I gave this impression, but I love patching from scratch! I have tons of patches I've made from scratch init progs on my R3 that I might never end up using.

I know that with patching, you can make a synth sound almost any way you want to. however, let me take my r3 as an example. in order to give it warmth, you need to use up your waveshaping, 3-4 patch bays, and at least 1, maybe 2 effects! this leaves you with little room left for additional patching and effects. However, on a synth like the MS2K, it's warm from the start, so you can get right into patching your sound without wasting extra effects/ws on getting warmth.
That's my fear with the virus; it won't have enough of the right low-end grrr for some of my patches, especially my dnb/dubstep basses (I've completely changed my bass style from the link I posted, rather than high end high harmonic LFO wobs I've gotten more into deep, vocoded low-end growls, a la skrillex)

roby, thanks for the very informative thread. I'm in a theory class atm so I can't go over every individual thing. a quick glance at the DSI MEK seemed interesting.

Then it seems the real issue we're up against one is mostly of processing resources (in order to get warmth, too many fx or voices must be added).

I find this to be true with softsynths as well. Most of the sounds are not particularly impressive until I add some fx to the mixer channel, and those fx come at a price (CPU of my PC in my case, as I said I'm a DAW guy).

The Ti2 desktop that I bought was meant to be a solution to this in the sense that I would be freeing up my CPU for at least 1-2 super warm patches I thought I could get out of the Virus and have no shortage of polyphony or sustainance for patches with a long release slope. Although it's not the sole reason I returned the Virus, I found that most of the patches that sounded really good were complex (resource intensive) patches which used most of the resources of the virus for a single patch. I've posted here before about the "D50 Bells" patch, which did sound a lot like a D50 (not that I really want to emulate that particular board), but started robbing the Virus of polyphony after maybe 5-6 simultaneous notes, so I thought this thing has the computational power of a pocket calculator compared to my Core i7-965 that I have in my PC. The D50 patch was not the only culprit, and to be fair it is possible I had a defective unit, but nobody here has ever posted contrary information so I have no way of knowing.

I will however come back to the fact that you can get the warm sound out of softsynths, although in many cases achieving it might be a little like your r3 scenario. So then you are left looking for very efficiently coded soft synths that make efficient use of CPU.. They have gotten remarkably better in the last couple of years, and at the same time CPUs have gotten very powerful and acquired more cores.

I know you mentioned Logic, so I assume you're a Mac-only guy, and there can definately be a higher cost (AppleTax) associated with the higher end CPUs, so that could be one limiting factor with regard to softsynths (though still cheaper than a dedicated HW synth for every 1-2 simultaneous poly sounds?)

There has also been a lot written about the "effectively unlimited polyphony" achieved by bouncing down tracks to free up CPU, so if that doesn't bother you that's one option in a software environment.

I made a really stupid mistake by purchasing Logic Pro. For some reason I decided that using a 1.9 ghz single core mac with 2 gb of DDR2 533 would somehow beat my 4 core 3.0 ghz PC with 4gb DDR2 1066 ¬.¬ I probably should've gone with Cubase and my PC, but atm, I'm stuck with the processing power of my mac.

However, the Virus using all of its resources for one patch isn't an issue for me, as the way I usually work is to sequence one instrument at a time, record it into Logic, and then move on to another instrument. It would be convenient to sequence multiple instruments across the timbres, though, so I could start building a mix and hear my bass, pads, lead etc. together.

I really, really don't know why I won't use softsynths. Maybe getting a dedicated softsynth MIDI controller would help as opposed to clicking and tweaking knobs, but there's still something in my subconscious that doesn't like that. Even though most modern hardware synths are just software instruments running on cheap internal hardware, there's something about them that I like... maybe the ability for them to function separately from a computer, as should I ever want to play elsewhere it'd be a real inconvenience to bring my mac around.

The TI definitely has low end grr. Skrillex patches go through some extensive post processing and manipulation as audio samples - as does most if not all dnb, dubstep genres. You can get some great sounds off the TI and use them to begin your audio manipulation however - plus having something thats a little more unique and rare can help you stand out from the crowd. Check out all the wavetables, LFO shapes, vowel filter shaping etc for some twisted bassline beginnings. Also, rate reduction and bit reduction on the TI are gorgeous.

I use my TI with every single tune I work on without fail. If you are heavy into programming, you will get so much out of it.

I have to have knobs to tweak. I have a Novation MIDI controller, and sometimes use Automap (comes with it), which makes it easy to map your knobs so that they function the same for each synth. Sometimes in haste I just use the DAW's controller link feature to map whatever parameter I want to tweak to the mod wheel, and do it one at a time. Zebra has some live mode X-Y pads that might change the way you feel about how useful a mouse can be in this scenario, although admittedly I dont use it much.
In short though, you can definately still keep your hands on the music keyboard & knobs instead of the computer the same way you would with hardware.

About the single-core Mac... well there's a reason I'm still PC based... Every time I look at the cost of a Mac that's in the same league as my PC, I am horrified. Usually Apple doesn't even offer the latest and greatest processors, and they are dodgy on their website about actual specs ("oh don't worry, its a 2.8ghz quad core but we reserve the right to not tell you exactly which Intel model CPU it is"), which stinks because not all CPUs with equal cores and equal clock speed perform the same.

that's good news. yep about skrillex, I've heard from someone that's met him a few times that he starts a patch in massive, modulates the shit out of it, resamples it, does the same, and continues doing that until the sound is as big as he wants, then vocodes it. So yep, a lot of post processing. Massive is one of the softsynths I'm actually considering, as its modulation section looks pretty cool.

I'm listening to your tracks on soundcloud, and they're really sick- do you use the virus a bit in them?

Thank you :) Those tracks are somewhat older now and when I put up some new things hopefully the sound quality/processing will be more up to scratch.

My go to plugins are -

Virus TI (obviously)
Massive
Camel Audio Alchemy
Reaktor utilising some 3rd party patches that are quite tasty.

I use Massive for reesey, growly bass line samples and then get in there and multiband them, multiband distortion, rate reduction etc etc. Theres a really nice soundset called RSL on the TI site that has great dubsteppy/dnb wobbles, growls etc. That said, I have been using the TI more for those kind of sounds, as I wrap my head around what the processes are in Massive, then attempt to replicate aspects of them with the TI.

Also in some of the tracks theres a bit of Sherman Filterbank action which can drastically destroy and crunch the tones - combine the warm TI sound with the warm Sherman and it can get quite wild.

I bought the TI being an absolute newb when it came to synthesis - having mostly used production keyboards like the Motif, Triton etc etc - having it all hands on taught me so much and allowed me to explore synthesis with an instrument that sounds beautiful.

All up, I'd consider how much money you can justify spending. If its not really an object, the TI might be the best music purchase youve ever made. It certainly is for me.

This is the main thing holding me back. I'm in my late teens, and sadly I live in the woods do I'm unemployed- it's a 45 minute walk to the nearest gas station, nevermind better employment. I'll be applying for my permit in a month or two, so hopefully that'll help, but then there's the issue of getting a car and paying for petrol >.>

Anyways, I could manage to get enough money from savings, ebaying etc. to get a used or maybe new snow, but a new polar is wayyy out of my price range- and I'd like knobs and a keyboard. A new desktop is also past what I can afford and doesn't have the convenience of keys. I've been looking around ebay, but I can't seem to find any used Polars/Desktops for sale, nevermind a good price.

Maybe when I hone my playing skills and have a few compositions, I can get a gig and earn some more cash. I honestly have no clue how to DJ so I'd probably just sequence some synths and play one or two, or maybe have my backing tracks prerecorded and just play something over them; who knows. Otherwise, it's seeing what my parents will help me with; my dads a keyboardist as well although more of a realistic preset masher, he just purchased an M50 on impulse so he may match whatever I'll pay.

In that case, i would get soft synths... you can 'trial' them initially, and once your satifised its the synth for you, then put down your money for a legitimate copy. Some companies give you demo versions (Eg alchemy have a 30 day trial with no limitations)

Another good thing about softsynths -- you will learn an insane amount about synthesis and sound design, because you'll be exposed to many more different types of synthesis (not just subtractive, but FM, Additive, weird variations like HCM etc) than you would even if you had a couple of dozen HW synths.

The softsynths feedingear mentions are all fantastic plugins and worthy of your collection, but IMO they tend to isolate you more from sound design than something like Zebra2 or KarmaFX which are modular in nature and give you an enormous amount of visibility of the nuts and bolts of a sounds. Also if you're interested in books on the nuts&bolts stuff, this guy has written a few: http://simoncann.com/ .. You can get one of his books in pdf format free at this link: http://noisesculpture.com/how-to-make-a-noise

Definitely wish I had a guide like that when I was starting out, I could barely find anything when I was starting out! I'll take a look at it.
My R3 does have Ring/Sync/Cross mod, and its own version of FM called Variable Phrase Modification, but yes, it's very focused on subtractive synthesis. More synthesis types could be nice.
I like Massive because of it's really cool modulation section that I've seen from youtube vids, unfortunately I can't state what specifics about the mod section I like because Native Instruments requires I have the latest version of flash, and adobe NO LONGER SUPPORTS POWERPC T.T

I'll look into Zebra and Karma though.

I still really want a AVTI Polar. I want a real synth. With a lot of knobs. And pretty LEDs.

Not wanting to start a whole thing here but Alchemy uses Additive, Subtractive, Spectral, Granular synthesis forms across 4 sound sources with a crazy amount of modulation.

But yes, for other synth types, you can use Reaktor and get as deep into modular creation as you like, or check out something like Max/MSP.

I think Alchemy sounds fantastic and I know it's very flexible, I also have only experience with the limited trial so correct me if I'm wrong but arent most of the CamelAudio presets basically samples with synthesis applied/blended into them? Usually if you install a synth and it takes more than a few megs of disk space, it is probably using sampled waveforms as harmonic basis, and then the line between that and a Motif/Triton type instrument begins to blur in my opinion. As I said I didn't play around with it much but I got the impression it is something like Omnisphere (which I do own), where you can use a sample or synthesis, but most of the really good stuff in their sound library is samples + processing/fx/synthetic variations.

Max/MSP on the other hand seems like it would probably be amazing for learning... maybe even getting so deep that one might get so caught up in the technical aspects that there's no time left in the day to make music :)

This is why I think Zebra hits such a sweet spot. It's semi-modular so you're not designing a new instrument from the ground up each time. The user interface is absolutely brilliant (once past the learning curve) on so many levels, and makes it very easy to change the paths of signal, modulation, etc. And the ways you can modulate, including the waveshape morphing feature, multisegment envelopes etc are something that I have just not seen done as well in another synth. There is a good reason this synth is consistently at the top of the plug-ins ratings even though it has not changed much in recent years.

0.0 Zebra looks amazing.

You tried the demo? You've got to try some of the community submitted samples. They blow the presets away.

Not yet, but I watched some youtube demo/tutorials. I'm really loving how much modulation you can do, between the 16 wavestages, the ... knobs, and the matrix. You could make some pretty gigantic sounds... four 11 voice oscillators being modulated all over the place? Amazing!

As a side note, I had an idea to build a VST keyboard- basically, just a PC inside a keyboard shaped box with a MIDI keyboard and MIDI knobs routed internally to the motherboard, with attached LCD, keyboard, trackpad mouse etc. It wouldn't be too hard to do and I could do it for less than the price of a virus polar ¬.¬

A virus would still be awesome though.

Believe it or not, I honestly believe that there are certain categories of sounds that Zebra will be able to accomplish that the Virus cannot, simply because of the editing mechanisms available in Zebra versus what is available through Virus control or knob limitations (not due to hardware limitations on the Virus's part).

Maybe not the best example, but I once wanted some complex cutoff envelopes like you hear in the "Ferry Mix" version of Ferry Corsten / Howard Jones - Into the Dark (link to video here, you can hear them at the beginning quite well) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghreT1MNJ4Y.. It was so easy with Zebra because you need lots of complex slopes across multiple envelopes that are perfectly tempo synced, and to do it right you need to apply them to more than just cutoff.

Anyhow about your idea, someone already had that idea early on in the softsynth movement and has been doing it very successfully including a built in touchscreen monitor for display. Look at http://www.openlabs.com/ at their Miko and Neko line. Only problem is they are very expensive for what you really get versus your own PC plus software, and just like the Virus or any other keyboard solution I can see the advantages for live play or if you travel a lot but for studio production you can do so much more with just a PC, DAW, Midi controller and a few softsynths.

Yep ;-) I know about Open Labs. I was just thinking about how easy (and relatively cheap) to make my own- especially considering how a end Core2Quad could handle a lot but the price has dropped with i5/i7. For the keyboard and controls I could just hack apart some on the market MIDI boards, and if there's no direct mobo interface I could use I could put in an internal usb bracket. I'm pretty sure newegg sells thin LCDs as well, so I could stick one of those in. Once it's done, it's just a matter of purchasing the softsynths I want and a DAW.

Actually, the hardest part for me would be the physical enclosure itself >.>

Don't forget the audio interface, if you went to the trouble of building it you'd probably want a good one with nice A/D converters preamp etc. And plenty of fans and planning for ventilation.