Virus Vs JP-8000..which basic waveform is fatter?
 

Yeah, I was wondering that, because that was one of the things that was stolen from me, and that's one of the main reasons I'm seriously considering a Virus. I was intending to get the Virus anyway, but now I want one more than ever before...but I dunno, cna you guys help me with some of your own opinions? ^_^;;

I own both a JP8080 and virus and with regards to the saw waveform I personally think the 8080 sounds better, not necessarily fatter. The JP seems to fill up the spectrum much more evenly where as the virus tends to die in the high frequencies for some reason. Dont get me wrong, they both sound shit hot and they are both good at different sounds, but for a a nice crisp rich saw wave I would go for the 8080 everytime.

Of course this may change with the TI (although I doubt it as the basic sound engine is the same) we will have to wait and see.

For fatness though the TI's hypersaw in unison is going to slay anything.

ten

You should try them both FIRST and also make sure to know about synthesis before you get a VA! Or at least, plan a few weeks/months to discover how it works :)

It's not about which one sounds fatter, it's about what you need for your particuliar style of music. I actually own a JP8080 and I used to own a Virus and both have a really different character. If you have only 1 synth, then I would say go for the Virus for more poly and multimode. If you already have quite a few synths, then the jp might be able to fill that gap :)

i always thought the unison on the virus was very...hmmm...how should i say...'loose.' it sounds almost messy :\

The Virus is my first hardware synth, I already know quite a bit about synthesis but i'm just curious what you mean by this statement?

I think you'll find the Hypersaw in the TI will see the JP off nicely.

Ben (and Marc),
How about a multi demo. Use the hypersaw excessively and show us that it is fatter. C'mon!!!! :lol: :lol: :wink:

My statement was just to make sure that nobody ends up in the situation I was 2-3 years ago! I bought Virus+jp8080+fr777 all at once, with no previous experience with hardware or synthesis...That's not the right thing to do! I should have bought a jp first, learn synthesis, then move on to the virus, and so on.

And Ben...WE WANT A MULTI demo! It's hard to believe that the hypersaw could sound fatter than the supersaw in the JP8080.

Well, for one thing the Hypersaw can generate up to 9 saws, vs the JP's 7. Only a subtle difference, I know, but then it also has more flexibility, courtesy of the internal sync and sub-oscillators.

Remember, this is a brand new algorithm - it doesn't just stack up 9 of the Virus' saws, so comparisons with earlier models running in Unison mode are irrelevant.

Hypersaw+sq is going to blow supersaw out of the boat :lol:

Hang on a sec......i thought the JP's supersaw was 3 sawtooths....not 7. Can some one clarify?

DS

With unison on its 7x the supersaw waveform.

ten

I think the supersaw has 7saws.

ur thinking of the JP8080 then?.....i cant rememebr the 8000 having unison. Oh well...my memory isnt too good hehe

DS

8000 is identical to the 8080 apart from a couple of extra poly, vocoder and more storage for patches. The rest is the same. (oh and the 8000 obviously has a keyboard ;)

ten

Using a Virus|Powercore I tend to find the obove statements to be true. Could Ben or Marc maybe explain what this lack of high frequencies is due to?

-REMIDI

The supression of certain higher frequencies is what gives the Virus its dark sonic character (hence its difficult to make genuinely bright 80's sounds on it :cry: ).

I would hazard a guess and say Access did this in order to reduce the audiable effects of aliasing. Im probably way off mark.....maybe someone could oneday clarify this....

DS

I totally agree with the 2 latest posts.

Ben...Anything to add? :)

9 saws. 7 saws. this is all maths. the one thing i have gotten from experience is: the jp8080 sounds fat as. its an instrument. not a calculator. i cant explain why it sounds fat as. but its somewhat more than just having 7 detuned saws spread in stereo. it has a unique character that you just cant find anywhere else. its all well and good quoting numbers: 80 simultaneous voices! 9 detuned oscillators! + sub oscillator! which computes to xxx number of simultaneous detuned oscillators = fatness.' but ultimately the TI has to be more than an oscillator crunching calculator.

i also think that the raw virus waveforms, particularly the saw wave doesnt sound that great without a tonne of effects on it. it doesnt quite have that crunch or that bite. maybe the hypersaw oscillator will do that.

but yea, what a way to dispell all this speculation by actually posting the god damn fattest hypersaw lead in existence playing a classic supersaw lead like one of cygnus x's tunes. go on ben, make me weep for not pre ordering ;)

i will admit, your previous demos got me close to crying. but crucially i DIDNT SHED A TEAR! finish the job ben! come on!

Wasn't the JP80x0 modelled on the Jupiter 8 (including filters, etc.), hence the JP8xxx title? Would this have contributed to the supersaw's fatness?

Also, I bet there's more to it than the actual individual saw waves that make up the supersaw each being mathematically-correct sawtooths (using fourier analysis), each identical, other than being detuned and panned?...

...meaning, I guess if we could isolate each saw wave, they wouldn't be just simple, "static" saw waves, just stacked in unison and detuned?

Could the Supersaw have also incorporated some kind of waveform-modulation/sync between the individual sawtooths to create an even more rich sound, seperate to detuning? (Check out this thread for examples of waveform-sync amongst saw waves, something I've never been able to easily achieve with the Virus, which could otherwise add a whole new level of fatness, completely seperate to simple detuning by normal methods:- )

[Forum thread: Quick pulse-width question]

Basically it appears to take one single sawtooth oscillator, break it into two (by duplicating it, then halving the amplitude for each copy), and then modulating the phase between the two to give a "doubling in octave/harmonic" type effect (more apparent when you modulate the phase with an LFO, creating a gentle "rocking" pitching motion between one octave to the next).

...And that's using just one single oscillator. When you mix just two of these oscillators together, and detune them, the effect is devastating, without even using any Unison or third/sub oscillator.

An audio example taken from that thread:

Timo

Wow, I just tried the Virus KC at Guitar Center * I work there now!! Weee!!* and here are my findings in comparison...

I remember the JP's sound quite well, and it's saw wave was very nice and thick. I tried making my own patch with the Virus, and I noticed...that it wasn't as thick or meaty as a JP saw wave..it was VERY noticable to me...I mean, unbearably...so...at first I kinda leered at the synth...for having a somewhat thin wave to start with. But I decided to give it a chance...and knowing the sonic versatility of the Virus, I tried morphing and fattening the sound I was creating. Eventually I came up with a very kick ass pad which could have easily taken over for the Korgmatose patch on my Triton LE, which I use in a really heavy industrial metal sound called "Fire", by my band. I then proceeded to create a fat bass, which also was nice. Still, now that I think about it, The Virus is damn powerful, but doesn't have the same character as the JP. I am seriously considering a JP-8080 module.

Also, I am considering getting one of my favorite analog synths ever..the Korg MS2000. It is one of the warmest analog synths I've ever played...eventually I'll probably end up buying it...either soon or later on. The SH-32 which is definately an underrated synth is also VERY cool, because it has some fatness, and a sonic character you cannot get through any other synth period, due to it's synthesis method, which is something that can only be found in THAT synth ONLY. It's called Wave Accerlation. I invite you guys to check it out...I think I'll end up buying those three for sure...and the Virus is under consideration. I really liked the classic, but I couldn't find the arpeggiator function..must be hidden in some menu that isn't easily accessable in the patch edit menus. =\

KEM, you are probably comparing supersaw to the virus saw. That's why virus saw was't meaty enough. About the MS2000 (VA), it is only 4voice poly though. Comparing the prices, you should check out the Ion, Micron synths and evolver :)

Hit the Ctrl button, and the arp settings are next along from the tempo.

Nope. I know the JP basic saw very well..and it felt fatter than the Virus to me. And I forgot to mention that the MS2K is a VA..I know it's not purely analog. Lol.

Would someone mind posting an mp3 of what they consider to be a good example of a Supersaw lead from a JP8xxx? If possible, I'd prefer it to be a solo sound recorded directly from the JP, rather than a clip of a track.

Thanks.

http://www.first-wave-music.de/downloads/downloadse.htm

near the bottom of the page is a link to a zip with it in.

Thanks - anybody got any more?

Ben: I'll record one as soon as I get home :)

I thought the purpose of the hypersaw in Virus TI was to do the same trick as in JP8000, to be able to make fat strings and leads and save polyphony without using the unison function at all !? :roll:

I always use 2 layers with JP8080, so my supersaw strings and leads have 2x 7 (supersaw) + 2 saw waves (osc2), a total of 16 saw waves. And I have been experimenting with many synths and I have found out that after some point there's no sense to put more saw waves together. The sound will become just a huge noise and doesn't even sound very good in most cases. And those who don't know or remember, the JP8080 HAS a UNISON too. But guess what, I never really use it, because 16 saws are enough with right detunings. The unison hits the sound too hard and it becomes just a fat noise and doesn't sound as beautiful anymore. Different synths have different unison behaviour but in most cases too much saw waves is too much.

And the TI will NOT replace the JP80x0! I have said this before too. Virus sounds great but in some cases the real JP supersaw + the JP 2-pole filter sounds better and virus cannot make that sound because the virus filter sounds completely different and the oscillators lack the highest frequencies, no matter how much you boost them even with sony oxford eq.

With virus I get some really nice ron van den beuken -style saw stacks and some beautiful dark string pads but for brighter strings and saw leads I prefer the JP over virus.

I'll throw another line of thought into the pot:

Why don't 2 x Virus saw oscillators, detuned, and 4 x Unison (to get 8 x detuned saw waves) with maximum pan-spread, sound like a Supersaw?

What's happening behind the scenes in the actual Supersaw oscillator waveform that makes it so different?

As I explained before, the HyperSaw is *not* the same as stacking 9 Virus saws together - they are a new oscillator design. The character of each basic saw is very similar, but the energy in the very top is definitely better.

So, from what I can tell so far, the Virus TI will be able to do a perfectly good emulation of the JP Supersaw patches, but the main point is, it will be able to do a lot more besides, courtesy of the subs, internal sync and modulation routings. I could also mention the fact that due to the TI's greatly increased polyphony, the patches which use so many saws don't have to be restricted to leads and basses..

i am still a newbie,

but i was always amazed at the saw sounds of JP-8080 AND JP-8000.

i was as well, staggered by the demos of ACCESS VIRUS C on the access site, which showcased the the virus as a whole.

however when playing on a PRO TOOLs software version of VIRUS C, as well as hearing the best demos of VIRUS C doing saws, i realised that they could not quite equal the JP-8080 saws but gave a different version , lighter, which of course could be used when neccesary.

i was always going to just!!!!buy an ACCESS VIRUS C, because of finance and that JP-8080 was no loonger made.
and it was upsetting me that i would miss out on the JP-8080 saw capabilities.
Luckily someone sold me their JP-8080, and i am increadibly delighted.

now i will have both.
i will soon buy the TI, no matter what its saws sound like, or maybe just the ACCESS VIRUS C (Its fantastic in its way),

mmmm, why has Roland never come up with a Super VA? Why did they never expand further on the JP80x0 concept, like the Virus did with the Virus A?

I believe that the hypersaw will be a good oscillator waveform, I don't deny that.

In fact the JP's supersaw is not 7 detuned saw waves. If I remember right, Roland used some other tricks to get the sound (phase modulation or something). The manual says that "it sounds like there were 7 saw waves playing together". But altough you could emulate the JP supersaw oscillator "perfectly" (which I still doubt) the sound will not be even near the same because THE FILTER is the most important thing in synthesizer and gives the synth the character. And the virus filter sounds completely different from jp's creamy & fat filter. I guess that people @ Roland didn't include the JP80x0 filter in V-synth (am I right?) because they don't know anything about their synths and why they were so good. It seems that they bring those good synths out sometimes by accident. Like the TB303 was meant to be a bass guitar emulation but became an acid heaven. The same goes for JP8000. It was meant to be a Jupiter emulation but became a total trance heaven with different kind of sound. :D

It doesn't help altough the virus has a "minimoog" kind of filter because it's not the best one to use with supersaw style sounds. There's still no other synth filter which sounds as good with the supersaw oscillators than the real JP filter. You will notice the difference when you slowly open the cutoff and there's a supersaw lead playing and arpeggio for example. That is what I call an uplifting sound. Virus excels with different kinds of sounds on the moment but I don't believe that the hypersaw will change everything. Alot depends on the filter too.

Edit: Timo, I have been thinking of the same too that why didn't Roland ever continue the succesful JP8000 but it seems that they are grazy people and sometimes don't even know what they're doing. If I worked at Roland as a synth engineer I would immediately use the superb algorithms of the JP8000. I would also suggest that Roland brought out some of the analog monosynths too, like TB303 and SH101 with midi control. I guess those would sell like grazy. A JP8000 mk2 would also be a success I think. But those bastards don't even seem to know for what most of the people use their classic synths. What a shame. :roll:

Hi Ben, so what does it do, then, other than stacking simple, mathematically-correct saws? Does it employ the waveform modulated-phase trick I mentioned in the other thread last year, and earlier in this thread, to thicken the sound without detuning? By using this technique, you could effectively make any oscillator into a super oscillator, ie. super-square (as per Virus TI), or even super-wavetable, lol.

PS > Regards the NAMM video you made for Sonicstate this year, did you have the Moog filter (perhaps the 1-pole version) locked in at the same time, or was it using the Virus' basic filter left wide-open? Were there any other effects going on, like distortion or saturation or the like?

No - they are detuned saws, like it says on the tin. However, the detune is applied a little differently in such a way that it suits multiple waves better than can be achieved with the classic Virus oscillators.

I can't remember to be honest - my brain was pretty phase-modulated by the time that video was shot ;) I think I was running them clean, but I can't be certain..

with regards to some samples - ill drop a little message over at the production forums over at tranceaddict.com and see if they can get a good crop of samples for you to reference off. they know their supersaws. and they luv em. and theres a lorra JP users down there (of course! its trance!)

the hypersaw is really really peaking my curiosity now. the JP sells off the back of the supersaw alone practically - its the one reason why they still sell on average for higher prices on ebay than virus b desktops. im saving the pennies now just in case. i wanted a nord lead 2x. but if i work summer, forget the lead 2x and sell my virus b - thats nearly on for a TI right?

http://www.rb2k1.com/sound-design/

check that one out. rb2k1 is a sound designer on tranceaddict.com. hes pretty good with a JP. he also made an ensemble for reaktor which emulates the jp8000 and its probably the best software emulation ive heard. theres a 320 kbps demo mp3 on his front page which showcases his jp80x0 patches playing midis of famous trance tunes.

if you can make a virus sound like that or (gulp) better, i will hallelujah till the cows come home since i will never have to get into another ebay bidding war over a jp8080 ever again. woot!

www.madstation.net/ben_demo.wav

Sorry it's a wave file, but it doesnt suffers from mp3 compression hah
(my soundforge mp3 export has expired)

Just playing a simple sequence from a performance on a jp8080...then removing effects(delay and chorus), then removing the detune and finally using just 1 supersaw osc...then putting the fx back in, playing with the detune value, etc.

Watch out @ the end of the clip, the volume is considerably louder(I reloaded the patch)

If these sounds can now be done with the TI, I will buy no less than 2!
hah