matching oscillator tones
 

Hi, this is a kinda stupid question but its one that has plagued me for years.
I have a couple of synths (1 being the indigo 2) and im able to make some nice sounding patches, but sometimes when i begin a track im unable to completely finish it, as im unable to produce more pads basses etc which match the tone of a patch ive already made..
i havent had any classical musical training and sometimes i think this would help..
but is there a way to gain more understanding of the oscillators within the virus? i mean, if you change the tone of 1 oscillator and detune it, is there a mathematical way to to work out how the other oscillators should be set? and then how these should match other patches that i add?

cheers for any advice on a stupid question..

I really don't know what you mean. What do you mean by tone? You're tuning your patches?

If you keep the oscillators at in tune there sohuldn't be any problems with detuning (unless you detune too much).

sorry, what i mean is the tone of each oscillator...
usually i start off focussing on 1 oscillator, then when i mix in the second oscillator with a totally different waveform i can find it difficult matching the tuning of each oscillator..

the same goes with matching 1 patch to say another on a different synth..
i usually spend hours tweaking the semitone and detuning for ages to try and get the same resultant 'tone' of each patch...
im still not making sense am i?

ehh.. what i mean is, is there a mathematical way to match semitones and detune levels of each oscillator if i have 1 osc set to say -7 and another set to 0, because 1 oscillator mixed with another will produce a different final tonality..

sometimes i have an image of a sound in my head to match something ive already made, and i find it difficult to get the tuning of that down..

hmm.. mibbe i should lay off the smokin eh :)

ill add an adendum to that...
i cant remember if it was you that posted the mp3 of the jean michell jarre tune equinox you made with a virus, but how were you able to say , 'ok i need this oscillator on this patch to be set at this level'

and btw, if it was you that made the jmj tune, respect !!!

I think I understand now what you mean. And now I'd like to ask do you even know what you're doing? Seems like there are serious problems in your patch programming logic.

When you program patches, don't tune your oscillators like a maniac. The patch is useless if its tuned to +0.5 or so. Always keep your oscillator settings so that they have a dominant frequency on the "base frequency" (like -24, -12, 0, +12 or +24). Otherwise you end up having a patch that has a transpose and thus is totally useless. For example if you want a detuned saw, just set one oscillator to zero and detune the other ones slightly. And again: Remember that always at least one oscillator at "base frequency".

It seems that you don't have even a faintest clue about basics of music. I'm not intentionally offending you (and I really don't mean to offend you). I may sound harsh but your lack of knowledge seems to be a serious issue here. I'd advice that you just study even the basics of music. Now you're like a blind man on a firing range - You just shoot around and wish that you'd hit. Also you should check out the programming tutorial on the Access site.

Nope. Wasn't me. It was an one-armed man... Or it also could have been Per Kristian.

I read that text again. Damn. I'm totally confused here now. Are you experiencing tuning problems (dissonances, etc)? Or are you just wondering waveform phasing and combination issues? It just seems weird that you're tuning patches.

man your fucking harsh..
no, im not tuning the patches.. the oscillators..

2 oscillators mixed with different pitches have a resultant pitch yeh?
this makes a patch, so i try and do the same with an other patch to match that final pitch, but using the same semi-tones and detuning, sounds out of tune..

and you dont have to be so fucking obnoxious.. i was asking a question, not asking for a fight

Juho and his charm strikes again! Hehehe.

I think the only sugestions I can offer on this subject would be;

1. Take a look at the programming tutorial on the Access site first of all.

2. Instead of making patches in the middle of the track you are working on, have big programming sessions before hand. Nothing kills inspiration more than having to fully programm new sounds while writing music. Minor tweaking is all I'll do.

3. Make varients of the sounds you like (eg: if have made a nice bass sound, copy it and tweak it 4 or 5 times). This gives you instant access to a good pallet of sound without tweaking or programming.

Hope this helps a little.

Sorry. I just misunderstood the whole question and got confused.

If you mix two oscillator signals the frequency isnt summed, only the components are summed. You'll have to think the mix result as a sum of the frequency components (in theory every signal can be represented as an infinite sum of sine waves of different frequencies in which one sine wave is one component).

So for example if you have two patches with followin osc settings:

Patch 1: Osc 1 = Saw +0, Osc 2 = Square +12
Patch 2: Osc 1 = PWM -12, Osc 2 = PWM + 7

There shouldn't be any problem in mixing those two patches. To say it in general: As long as the patches are in right tune (i.e. not transposed or heavily detuned), there shouldn't be anykind of problems.

Am I on the right track here?

As I said, just a misunderstanding. I'm not trying to start a fight here. As I wrote on my third posting I got confused and really had difficulties in understanding the whole issue. This means that the second post wasn't actually even pointed to you. People tend to make mistakes. No need to take everything very personally.

hehe...
sorry, and thanks to both of yous....

thats what i was after, but i didnt really explain well to start with :)

i do tend to start of with 1 sound at a time from scratch then shape the sound and use a lot of detuning too to get the noises im after.
but its when im creating new sounds to use in the song with it, that i find it difficult to match.
i make alot of idmish stuff and electro, so i need those melancholy sounds..

hollowcell.. i am starting to find now after a year of having the indigo that i'm building a library of sounds i can recall and work fairly well, its just that i like building sounds from scratch
btw, ure not the hollowcell that hosts the akai site?

That's ok. So, now we're cooking.

The rule number one while setting up the oscillators is that keep at least one main oscillator non-detuned. That way you keep the pitch right and avoid tuning problems. Also take easy with chorus and pitch LFO's/envelopes.

Phew, I've read the question about three times and still can't understand it.

AFAIK, pretty much every 'tuned' patch made should ideally reference to a base semitone value of 0, or transposed an octave or two above and below, as Juho pointed out. When you've learn theory and stuff, then the 7ths, triads etc. come into it. And of course for the non-tuned instruments (percussion, sfx, etc.), anything goes.
And that's pretty much standard across all synths.

Actually, have you got one synth globally tuned to a different key than the other?

If one synth is globally transposed, say, 4 semitones up from another, second synth, then yeah, you're going to have some serious probs tuning patches to sit well between both synths.

Best set equal global transpose settings for each/all synths at any one time.

the 5th can also be used.
it doesnt have the "tonal dynmics" of 0,7 or 12(whole octave up) but it can also be used.

no, im talkin about the oscillators used to make a patch..
i dont globally transpose...
as i say, i tend to use weirder offtuned oscillator settings, like -2 semitones for osc 1 and detune it alot compared to osc 2...
i make idm :)
the only reason i mentioned other synths is because if i try and create a new patch to use with the original patch ive made, whether on the indigo or another synth, i find it difficult to match the pitch
cheers

So it seems that you're forming chords with the oscillators. Using oscillators to form chords is not a very parctical way, but it can be done and the rule of one +0 oscillator also applies here. Creating chords with oscillators is always a bit "risky" because you tend to forget what chord is in which patch. For example if you program maj7 chord on one patch it won't work with a patch that has m7 programmed in it even the both patches play at the same note.

I'd recommend creating a single note patches and playing the chords instead of programming the chords in to the patches. Much easier that way plus you get more oscillators per voice.

Seconded.

Grab a couple of beginner/intermediate keyboard music theory books, or something, you wont regret it. Ignore the oscillators, sounds and stuff for now. It's a distraction.
There's nothing better than just a man and his piano for actually learning music.

Nope that's not me I'm affraid. At least it's not the personality I'm using now! 8O Maybe my psyciatrist was correct!

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean take other peoples sounds, then tweak and use them. I meant program your own sounds (from scratch) then tweak and make variants. Doing this will give you instant access to many sounds with-out thinking.

Thirded! Definitely wouldn't be using the OSCs in this way.

Good luck with it all mate. :wink:

hehe.. cheers to yous all...
ive actually been thinkin about taking piano lessons just to properly learn chords etc.. i do play chords, but its just that it takes me longer to get things down...

is there any keyboard books yous would reccomend? i bought 1 last yr, but its as dry as hell and seems pretty crap...

Juho helped me out with some basic chords and stuff once before.

I can play by ear alright, but it was nice to know what the chords/notes were I was playing.

Maybe Juho should start a thread with diagrams called "Basic musical knowledge". I know you have time Juho :wink: .

I indeed do have time, but the reason why I haven't made a chord tutorial is that I'm no 100% competent with correct musical theory. My explanations might be a little "bit weird".

But it seems that no-one else is able to make such tutorial, so I might make one.

To say the least, but I still understood your explanation. :D

I think the main issue is to keep the main osc. (the loudest) at one of the 'root-keys' (0, +12, +24, -12, -24). In that way you can't go all wrong :)
Then just tweak the other osc. until you think it sounds the way you want.

As I mentioned above this doesn't work if you do chords. Minor and major just don't mix no matter how you set "the root key".

Well of course, I just took by default that he didn't play chords since called his sound 'noises' or something somewhere and because he mentioned that he knew nothing about theory... :)

yeh.. that would be really good..
the problem i have with the books i have is that they are a really dry read, and theyre all focussed on old playing chords from known songs like beatles tunes..
maybe if they were to use, i dunno, kraftwerk songs or something it would be easier :)

cheers

Minor and major can mix if you use a chord modulation in your composing (ie relative minor or parallel minor, from a major...)

Now back to the subject
just remember this....!!IF you are playing just C on the keyboard!!
(relative to +)

0=C
1=C#
2=D
3=D#
4=E
5=F
6=F#
7=G
8=G#
9=A
10=A#
11=B
12=C (octave up)

(relative to minus)

0=C
1=B
2=A#
3=A
4=G#
5=G
6=F#
7=F
8=E
9=D#
10=D
11=C#
12=C (octave up)

And Juho is right your problem is when you change the Tune of you osc's and are play chords its going to sound horrible because its all relative to your tune setting...ie if you have the first osc set to +2 and you play C on the keyboard you are actually playing D but if you play D on the keyboard you are playing E on the keyboard and if you play E you are actually playing F# which is where you will run into problems...

My advices is to do either of these 2 things for right now to help you along...later you can experiment...but for right now do this....

1. when changing the tone of the osc's you should try to stick to on note but if you want you can play more i personally wouldnt go over 2 notes simultaneously until you get more comfortable to tonality...

2. key the semi tones on the 0 +12 +24 +36 +48, 0 -12 -24 -36 -48 settings when you play chords and make the chord the way you tune your song...Playing different chords will change the sound of the patch...not dramatically but it will sound different... it will sound more solid if you worked on playing chords in your songs rather then detuning the osc and playing single notes to get crazy sounds...

Just remember that listing i posted above it should help out when trying to figure out if something is in tune or not...but remember that was only in reference to using C as the starting point

peace
Blank

I meant simulatenously. Of couse you'll then get majorminor chord, but that's one of the most useless chords on earth.

Hey Blank, I've asked this before, but would you make a small chord tutorial? Just short tutorial with the basic stuff.

And a good way to learn chords is this: http://nfo.net/MFILE/

Probably all chords as a java applet. Very useful.

I suppose i could try working on it...my life is pretty active right now tho...mostly work...then studio work but ill do my best to see what i can do...my biggest problem right now is i keep going through my 256 sounds i made and finding bad patches that i keep remaking...that damn soundset should have been released along time ago...damnit i still have to make the freaking website too...Ill see what i can do Juho...

peace
Blank

I can't remember where I found this link, I don't think it was here but it may have been.

Anyway, http://www.musictheory.net/ is a great place to start with music theory. I am learning heaps from there.

http://www.sunesha.nu/virusforum/viewtopic.php?p=22668

I made a sticky thread for links to tutorials and guides about music theory and making music.

thanks very much juho and ledge...
much appreciated!!!

ok, can i ask your opinions on the mp3 i uploaded? .. (not on the song tho, it was just something i was pissin around with tonite)...

the soft pad is a preset i had that ive tweaked alot...
i have osc1 set to 0 semitones, osc 2 to + 7, and osc 3 to +14
now i been looking through that site and trying to find what chord that relates too, but im kinda lost, it sounds like a major..
anyway.. that was just single keys i was recording so do you think that its best to set the oscillators semitones to an octave and then then work out the chords from there?
i.e. from the osc settings i have?
cheers

[ok,i just realised i cant upload files]
so http://www.aqrp01.dsl.pipex.com/

If C is the basenote, Osc1 = C, Osc2 = G, and Osc 3 = D on the next octave.
... I haven't a clue what that is, but I'd probably only use that as a transitory chord (ie. used inbetween main chords when changing key)

A major chord would have semitone values of 0, 4, and 7.
Minors would be 0, 3, 7.

However, once you have programmed the patch to be a major/minor/whatever "chord", you're stuck with it, which would make for very restrained playing... You would be very restricted in what you could play, without it sounding like a right dirge.

As much as your programming techniques are resourceful in the short term, I'd advise going back to the usual 0, 12, 24, semitones for your patches, and then learning to play chords (ie. three-fingered notes, as opposed to using just one-finger at a time) to make up the layers.

First though, I'd ignore chords and using several oscillators all together - just concentrate on playing a simple one-oscillator melody using your right hand, and get to know the notes you're playing.

cheers timo..
yeh, im starting to realise that now..
ive booked myself on some keyboard lessons from next week though, coz if i dont ill end up just chucking it!!

"Sharp" keys (commonly denoted by a "#" symbol) keys are the BLACK keys.

"C" is the WHITE key to the left of the first group of two black keys.

So the black key to the right of C is C# - ie. C sharp.

The white key to the right of "C" is "D".

I think we need a picture..... brb

lol...
u not working tomorrow either then :)

its ok though, i know the layout of a keyboard.. i just need to change the way i do things, coz its obviously wrong !!

Nice one. :) I started out by playing music by ear, but after I eventually took keyboard lessons I then learnt a lot more very quickly! It opens up a new world, and you'll look back on it and not regret it, even though you learn from simplistic songs in the beginning. It gives you a really good boost. Once you eventually build up the knowledge of chord patterns, you'll be knocking out cheesy arpeggios on your Virus in no time. ;)

Those are the names/letters of the white keys.

C# is therefore the black key to the right of C.
D# the black to the right of D.
etc...

While "#" is used to denote "sharp", the lower-case symbol "b" is also used to denote "flat". A "flat" just means a black key to the left of a white key, instead of to the right (which you already know is a "sharp")...

Convention usually dictates that D# (D-sharp) is actually called Eb (E-flat), and similarly A# (A-sharp) is Bb (B-flat). The rest of the black keys C#, F#, G# are all referred to as sharps, but you don't need to know that yet. Just think of all the black keys as sharps, and ignore the term "flat" for the time being.

I got the above pic from here:

http://www.pianoworld.com/keyboard.htm

cheers again

like i say.. i got a keyboard book here but never invested much time in it..
ive spent the last 3 yrs intending to get lessons because i know ive just been muddling around in dark till its got to this point where i either do it, or chuck it in....
so ill cut back on the beer for a bit :D

youd be timo from sos i presume then eh ?

Anyway, you said you made a patch with the semitones 0, +7, and +14...

... so as an example, if you pressed just the note "C" on the keyboard to play this patch, your first oscillator would be a C, then the next oscillator would be 7 keys to the right (include both white and black) = G.
The third oscillator, +14 semitones from C. would then be D on the next octave (the next repeated set of notes).