annoying fogginess
 

How can I defeat the fogginess of a sound in the virus? Many of the presets and my own sounds have this quite annoying character. Even if the filters are wide open, some patches still sound very foggy. I make bright lead, bass and pad sounds with the virus for trance music mostly, and I can?t stand that some of the pathes sound as they sound no matter how I tweak them. I have so many great patches waiting for the final polish. I just can?t do anything about it. I?ve tried everything. Some help here please.

Maybe you could try using some cotton buds? :wink:

:lol:

Re: annoying fogginess
 

I totally agree, thats prob the biggest reason i prefer the nords over the Virus. Although that diffuse sound can fit quite good in a mix sometimes.

what i do is drop the bass some in the eq, or at some noise, or u can use an exteranl eq and/or compressor...external reverb/delay...but i do know what u mean...it sounds almost like it have too much mid to low band on it...u have to fix that with external stuff...

peace
Blank

But how can I do it inside the virus? I don?t like to use much of external gear. It gets too complicated. I use EQ and compression only when mixing down.
The problem is that some of my patches (and presets too) sound wonderfully bright and clean but some other have this "foggy" kind of sound. They would sound as good as the others without the "fogginess". No matter how I tweak them they still don?t sound bright enough. If I like some patch a lot It?s a shame that it?s useless for me only because It doesn?t sound bright. Is the problem in the filter settings or something like that?
I have been wondering why this topic hasn?t been here allready because I think others have this problem too. Some of the greatest patch collections from the Access website have these kind of patches too. Haven?t you notised??? Some patches sound awsom and bright but others don?t eventhou the filters are open.

How about you post a couple of these patches so we can take a look? Or maybe you could name a couple of the presets to which you referred? It's difficult to come up with any meaningful remedies without specific examples.

Ben is right i was going to say the same thing...but i have a feeling already that this is most likely not a hardware problem but rather a taste problem...i have a feeling that u r looking for a specific sound and when u make a sound if it doesnt sound like the patch u were looking for your ear doesnt like it...because i remember going through the same problem when i started really getting use to the virus...So i personally think it is more of an ear preference...

peace
Blank

Yeah man! I know what you mean! .... Though im a total nightmare for getting a patch to sound the way i like it!.. I love my Virus to bits but the longer I work on a part the more I hate it and start noticing bits of detail none else seems to notice!! I dont think it is a virus issue like the others said i think its down to your ears and taste!!!

The Virus to me can sound extremly "foggy" or even "bitty" sort of to much "gritt" and not a lot of "fullness" to it, sounds like its being used to its limits and stretched to it last bit of power!!!!.............. Though grittyness is very very very nice at times! Some times I look for a fuller sound that I can not find some times with in the Virus (very noticeable with Pads!!) Thats one of the reasons im getting a Nord! :)

Do you mean patches you have programmed or standard patches mate?

you could always layer couple of synths

I always layer my synths! :)

Please post a few examples.

I think you may be refering to the general tone fo the Virus though.

I think what you are talking about here is CLARITY or perhaps a slight lack of. This is a relatively common characteristic of VA synths from around the late 90's. It is NOT a problem with the synth....it is more of a taste issue. I think most people who use the Virus and JP8000 probably recognise the 'fact' that the sound can get pretty muddy at times (True analogs dont tend to suffer from this as much). The Nords and Waldorfs dont suffer quite as much....and generally have a fresher/clearer/transparent presentation.

In recent days Ive had a revelation (you guys prob do this anyway!). Ive come to realise that I dont need to apply unison all the time (I tend to use it on leads, fx and bass). But for pads........ you will obtain greater clarity if you use 2 oscilators and NO unison. Extra 'movement' and 'fatness' can be easily obtained using subtle chorus/phaser. You should begin to notice more clarity in your sounds if you do this. One last point. If clarity is what you need....then check out late 80's/ early 90's digital synths such as the Roland JD800. Roland D50 and KOrg Wavestation ( www.vintagesynth.com ). These synths use a different technology and are famous for their transparent clarity (perfect for pads). Wanna hear a Korg Wavestation pad? Check this http://www.clavia.se/MP3s/MP3%20files/alien2ed.mp3 out.......f*&%king classic digital sound!

The demo was made using....

"The instruments used on the song include my Nord Lead, Korg Wavestation, Sequential Circuits Prophet 600, and AKAI S3000XL. Without a doubt the Nord played the most vital role in the song. I programmed the bass sound on the Nord. The bass is what drives the song, and what great bass sounds you can make with that thing. The next sound I used from the Nord is the arpeggios. I would call that the lead instrument when it kicks in at the end, but it's also throughout the song as a texture. It adds motion and dynamic to the track. The AKAI handled all the drum sounds as well as the voice samples. The Wavestation was the pads and sound fx. And the Prophet played a few texture fx sounds. Here's basic rundown: Nord Lead: Bass and Arpeggios. Wavestation: Pads and FX. Akai: Drums and Voice. Prophet: Textures and FX"

To conclude......*Play* the Virus on its strengths (in my opinion ambient/atmospheric soundscapes) and use other synths where it is weak. No synth is perfect for everything.

DS

DS: 404 not found for the demo

OK try again!

I love that pad sound yummy

DS

Anyone reading this post who dosnt have a virus.. dont be put off! Its just everyone on here has nothing better to do then moan! Including myself! :wink: :lol:

Yeah linok dosnt work for me either mate! :cry:

Where r u from in the UK DS by the way? :)

Those 2 links i posted above should definitely be working now!

303 - I live in Guildford, Surrey. Im currently at University there doing psychology. Where abouts u from? Let me guess...up north...prob a brummie way hehe. I'd be regarded a southern pufter b'cos I speak queens english lmao.

*For people who are browsing......like 303 says...dont be put off by 'negative' comments about the Virus. This is an unnofficial access virus user forum........we are professionals and hobbyists. We have bad days and good days...and sometimes we take it out on people or synths. EVERY synth forum has people bitching about synths..... The kinda posts people make are when they have an issue or slight prob. Were're not all going to sit here everyday and write about how good the Access synths are...we know that already!*

Im possibly one of the biggest Virus bitches on here. Ive had some 'problems'....and ive flamed the Virus abit. Ive owned quite a few old analog classics (Jupiter 8, Pro-One, Mono/Poly, Juno 60 etc etc) and was initially critical of the Virus' sound.If VA synths were marketed differently....for example....as a digital synth....then I'd be happier with that. Take the Casio CZ synths......they were digital phase distortion. They had 'analog' waveforms such as saw and triangle...but they werent marketed as Virtual Analog. Despite my bitching.....I still own and enjoy the Virus KC for what it does. The Virus/Indigo synths are able to create amazing tones which are just not possible on a true analog. Thats the most important thing for me.

Hmmm.....maybe we should start a new thread and tell people what we enjoy most about the Virus. That way visitors to the forum can get a fuller perspective from users!

Just one last point.... I was having a conversation with a very prestigious vintage analog dealer in the UK and we were talking about the state of new synths. Like me, he's a little old skool and loves the old analogs....because they all have a very distinctive flavour/tone/sound call it wot u will. Old synths such as the Jupiter 8, Prophet 5 and DX7 are reveered because they were heavily used throughout the 80's. We've had high exposure to those synth sounds.....and we like them. I asked him whether he thinks the Nords and Virus' will be regarded as classics in 15+ years time......and he told me in no uncertain terms...YES. 2 reasons......(1) The Nord and Virus are 2 of the most distinct sounding synths since 1995-present day and (2) They are probably the two most heavily used synths used in music. In 15 years time when we look back to our cheesy trance and techno (I reckon this music will sound better with the passage of time!) those are the synths we will hear.

Hmm its a thought.

DS

I really dont quite get your guys' words of explaination on sound type...DS im sorry to say analogue synths r muddy...if u pay close attention u will notice...why analogues sound so much more full is because they cloud the sound up with distortion and detuning...and not distortion like guitar distortion...ppl just dont understand that when u play a VA u get the note u play...if u play an analogue u get either a wavering note or a note full with slight overtones...VA's r clean and precise...if the sound is muddy it is because u have shitty convertors...

atleast this is my definition of muddy...this is why i laugh when ppl say that records sound better the cds...because they really dont...its just that your ear is looking for that distortion to fill the gaps of the audio...why do u think pop trance uses noise!!

Peace
Blank

BTW im not trying to start an arguement im just trying to get a better idea of your words and give u mine at the same time....

This is a VERY subjective thing Blank. Records can in fact sound 'better' on a high end turntable. Clarrity is about the same as CD...but with analog records you get a fuller, warmer presentation. The timing is not so tight.....i.e. you get a little less precison with bass, drums and acoustic instruments. But if you are comparing both formats in terms of satisfying enjoyment....most people would choose a high grade valve amp and decent turntable. Im a hi-fi enthusiast.....and thats my opinion.

Regarding analog synths sounding perhaps more muddy than VA.....I'd have to disagree with you there. Im not going to get into a debate with people about this. My friend is buying a Jupiter 8 and Ill be buying a decent analog mono this summer.......so we can do some comparisons if you like.

DS

Yeah good idea Start a new thread because the majority of the posts on here are mostly regarding issues and problems quite negative and wouldnt want to put anyone off from an amzing bit of kit! :)

suppose though if everone came on here everyday to write sumin good about it would be boring!! critical feedback is always good

Na i aint a northerner mate! Im from the luxurious english riviera unfortunately! :cry:

NICE!!!

What sort of stuff/style you make DS?

I can kind of understand why ppl think that an analogue turntable sounds better...its the same reason ppl like distortion and detuned synth sounds...it fills out the tone spectrum so its harder to be off pitch...and im not saying im not one of them...i like the sound of analogue synths...but i do realize that its because the constant fluctuation of pitch and the added noise and distortion...heck thats what causes that gritty sound on filter sweeps on basses thats sound so awesome...its going to take ppl quite a long time to get use to what ppl call the "iciness" of VA's and digital music...

peace
Blank

Blank - you're forgetting that a CD is only 16bits @ 44.1Khz. A turntable can deliver a *far* greater frequency response and dynamic range than the CD is capable of, as there is far less loss of the original information. Granted, you have to look after the vinyl very well, and it will eventually lose clarity with age - not to mention the hassle of setting up and maintaining the turntable, stylus etc. A CD will sound fine on a budget player, and (allegedly) will sound the same every time you play it, but it really does not sound *anywhere near* as good as vinyl played on a decent system.

Bear in mind that a comparison between the two media is subject to some important variables though - if the source material was recorded on a digital system, especially 16bit @ 44.1, then the difference is more likely to be as you described.

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Ill drink to that 8)

Records sound awesome.

DS

Har, Har! - I wish! :wink:

ok well what is the frequency response of a record? isnt it based on your equipment u play it on? I so u have to take the standard in home equipment and relate that to a cds standard in home equipment...as for the 16bit @ 44hz...I have never heard the difference between 16 to 24 bit...I honestly believe that our ears unless trained do not hear the difference...on top of that just say for instance that a record has all this frequency response that a "cd" doesnt, u still get more noise included in the in that wide frequency response...all im saying is that warmth is not some magical thing, its distortion...Ive accepted...it doesnt mean its crap...I was just trying to show that our ears tend to like that distortion...which is why i believe VA's r shit on versus analogue synths...and on top of that if our ears can be fool by our brain and by outside elements (which they can) then i would believe that the fogginess that is heard on the VA is simply our brain not liking the sound we r creating...I truely love how ppl kling on to older things...it would be like me going on and saying dude records suck the phonograph is where its at...LOL...obviously the record is not better then modern technologies in a multitude of ways otherwise record companies would still be mass producing them like CD's...even if on data sheets state records have a better frequency response its not enough to matter(by the human ear) since CD's r the thing now...which will be replaced by mp3's and everything will be bought onlines many years to come...

peace
Blank

I?m sorry I haven?t had time to read your comments before. I?ve been quite busy.
Some of you gave me really good advices on the subject. I actually tried some of my patches without unison and I think it worked just like you said. Some patches sounded less muddier with no unison and a bit of chorus instead. But I still find unison to be very usefull for me. For some patches it really does what it?s supposed to. The brightness doesn?t suffer but the sound itself sounds very thick and spacy.
I also tried some of the foggy patches in a mix and I agree it is a taste problem rather than a hardware one. The mixes didn?t sound muddy although some patches did. It just sounded different. Not good for my taste but maybe for someone else.

DS is right, I also find you can make the VC clearer by deconstructing the patch a bit. Take the Unison down but then turn the patch volume up a little and add a bit extra mid - high eq...... (for pads).

DS is right, I also find you can make the VC clearer by deconstructing the patch a bit. Take the Unison down but then turn the patch volume up a little and add a bit extra mid - high eq...... (for pads).

DS is right, I also find you can make the VC clearer by deconstructing the patch a bit. Take the Unison down but then turn the patch volume up a little and add a bit extra mid to high eq (for pads). Sometimes a lot of the problem in constructing patches is too many effects, unison, pan e.t.c. are applied. Only use what you need.

Aye, the unison is oft a factor for me. 2 or 3 voices is absolutely lovely for detuned saw stuff, retaining its clear-cut roughness. Anything more and it turns to mush/noise. I know what you mean, though, on tweaking various patches on the Virus just a little bit takes it into mush-factor. Seems like the Virus has sometimes slightly-hidden 'sweet-spots' that you need to find and take advantage of. :)

PS > Nice track DS, great background music while you're working. Real 'thinking' catalyst material, that puts your brain into gear. :)

When i first got the Virus I got into a habit of using unison 'twin' on everything and I mean EVERYTHING!. Now, I use it very sparingly......and only use subtle effects. I enjoy good clarity in the sounds I make now.

Glad my adviced helped ya a bit.

*One last piece of advice. The Virus has really great multimode filters and most people probably use the two filters simultaneously ALL THE TIME......I know I did. Try using one filter.......you will get better clarity on synth strings and some pad sounds. After all......most analog poly's of the 80's only had 1 filter anywayz!

DS 8)

Why didn't these replies get added to this thread?:-

http://www.sunesha.nu/virusforum/vie...ghlight=#19184

Actually, on look at my post history, a number of posts weren't posted in the actual thread for all to see, but instead remain invisible!

Test.

[Edit: Still invisible! Please reply if you can see this post.... ]

Wow I was right 3 times in a row. Thats pretty great!

heheheeeh

DS

I would like to ad my 2 cents to this thread. I work in Hi Fi, I DJ hard trance and I produce as well as study accoustics, production and anything that remotely has anything to do with sound.

For a start. Catagorically vinyl is a better format from cd aside from the one problem of its deteriation over time. Vinyl is a true analogue format and is not restricted to any specific frequency range. The limitations often come from the playback equipment. If you watch speakers on a hifi as the turntable plays the intro of a record you will see the speakers moving in and out at quite massive excursions and yet you will not hear a sound. This is due to the fact (as most of you know) that vinyl is not restricted to the 20hz-20khz range of cd. This also applies to the higher frequencies.

I can't hear anything above 20hz anyway so what does it matter I hear you say... Well, those frequencies above our hearing range combined with frequencies in our hearing range create harmonics that we perceive as richening the sound and thus consider it more pleasurable to listen to.

The other huge reason that cd is crap is that the PCM format (Pulse Code Modulation) was a flawed theory right from the start. Sony has developed a new system call DSD (Direct Stream Digital) which is by far a better system and was originally developed as a system to archive sony's studio masters from over the years in a digital medium that would not be degraded over time. After finding the format a success, someone at sony realised that if they bypassed the PCM part of the process and encoded the analogue signal straight to DSD. This is how the SACD format was developed. Unfortunately the equipment isn't available for you and me to be able to record direct to DSD as yet.

This is my humble attempt to dispelled some myths and share some knowledge. :)

Maybe this would explain the difference in sound between true analog and digital VA?

DS