Can't make the LFO go funny no matter how hard I try - I do get the occasional pop when playing several chords in succession though. The pops are very rare, but they are quite loud - I'll notify Access about it..

Well, this is not quite true. The JP's oscillators have more higher frequencies. Reverb never adds higher frequencies, especially if they don't exist and usually every reverb setting has a lowpass at about 3-5kHz. I have tweaked JP8000, JP8080 and Virus B, KC and Virus Powercore side by side and the JP just has more higher frequencies. The virus sounds like it has a static lowpass somewhere near 10kHz.

Well, it cannot do it. Please record a demo and show me and then I'll believe. I have tried to get the Virus to sound like a JP and I have got pretty close. It can fool you with certain sequences and some filter settings but when you start playing polyphonic pads or open the cutoff the truth reveals. The only synth which can imitate JP80x0 almost perfectly is Alesis Andromeda. It doesn't lack the high frequencies like Virus. I fooled my friends a year ago with andro playing supersaw-sounds. They were 100% certain that the sound came from JP80x0. And those friends of mine all have JP80x0's. I spent alot of time tweaking the eq's and effects and got 99,999% identical sound.

So you?re saying the mp3 that this thread refers to is not using any effects even reverb?

I can hear a ton of effect on the tail of that mp3 dude!

Can you direct your argument at the right person? I never said the hypersaw sounded like a supersaw!

Hey i know , lets start talking about what the TI's good at for a change! :idea:

Selectable Wavetables

No, he was saying that reverb doesn't add high frequencies. And he's right.

The Hypersaw oscillator doesn't - it is much brighter at the top end than the 'Classic' saw. If you want to emphasize it more, the EQ should do the job pretty well - I'd bet my bottom dollar that if the JP's oscillator sounds brighter, it's because they stuck a high shelf eq in it..

Hi,

Wouldn't it be much simpler if somebody with a TI would finally post a good audio demo of the Hypersaw so can all hear how good it is in the high frequencies etc.. No need to even compress it to mp3, just upload the wav (better quality anyway) to yousendit.com or something if you have no upload space.

Here's the url to the JP8000 demo again: http://users.skynet.be/soundfiles/motorcycle.mp3 If you play this melody with the TI and sweep the filter, make sure you play it long enough with the filter full open.

Thanks very much!

Dance123: I'll post something on tuesday. I can't before that, no internet at home and I'm rewiring the studio.

Like somebody already said, I didn't say that the demo mp3 didn't have any reverb. However many classic trance tracks have been made using only the JP's own delay without any reverb or external effects. The supersaw sounds which the JP does, don't need much or any effects. It sounds quite massive already alone.

You said:
I was referring to this. You cannot make Virus to sound like JP's supersaw, doesn't matter whether you use the hypersaw or the basic saws.

you have a point but just because something cannot be done with the constraints of the equipment you have doesnt mean you should not try. otherwise why bother trying to make acoustic instrument sounds on a virtual analogue synth? if a synth can even half way make a convincing woodwind sound from its square wave and mod matrix then that in my opinion is the hallmark of a good synth. telling people not to bother because they cant is like saying 'why bother trying to fly when we dont have wings? give up davinci - theres just no point.'

the virus is especially apt because it is possible to emulate a wide variety of classic analogue and digital and acoustic sounds on it. sure you wont fool the owners of those synths. but you can probably get close enough to fool everyone else. and its the versatility of the machine and the understanding you get from closely working with your synth to build a very specific sound that is ultimately valuable. it is sound design experience. i fail to see how this exercise is pointless in any way.

think of this as an academic exercise. i am surprised nobody has posted a wav of the raw hypersaw oscillator. i would if i had a TI - unfortunately i only have a virus b. it wouldnt take more than 10 minutes to bounce it and upload it to some free webhost.

although the quick and easy answer is to go and buy a jp8000. no feedback oscillator and no supersaw oscillator on the virus will always mean you are tending towards the supersaw sound. but hey...

someone else will eventually get around to making a new interesting sound using the hypersaw and then people will have to buy virus TIs to get that 'exact' sound.

EDIT: also, dont quote me on this but im fairly certain that gabriel and dresden (aka motorcycle) do not use any hardware.

Hi man.....

Just want to pick your brains over a few points. Dont be offended.... 8)

Sure, if you have the time to persue something futile :lol: :wink:

Anyone trying to achieve acoustic sounds from a synthesizer should have bought a ?79 yamaha 'learn to play piano in 24 different styles' and not listened to some slimely salesman

Interesting

Ok, I hear ya.....but the reality is.....me suggesting people not to bother is unlikely to have much influence on their decision to do something. Id like to think im influential....but im not!

Im not sure m8. Any synth can make a fuzzy sawtooth lead.....but does that warrant people saying it can emulate an Oberheim? Any synth can make a Moogy style bass.....even my DX7....so what does this tell you? Grab a sawtooth......tinker around with a 24db filter....adjust the EG accordingly (very important for convincing moog sounds) and hey presto.....but still....in my mind..the VA you've just done that on is not emulating anything but a specific osc/filt/eg configuration....not the soul of a classic synth.

I find it ironic that there seems to be great emphasis on recreating classic analog sounds when people who own the originals often get lambasted for being analog elitist/purist.......its as if people are jealous or something. This has happened to me many times.....

I dont know man.....who is 'everyone else?' The pill popping junkies who are about to down some Dr Moog adorned acid tabs?


Yes, I agree. Ultimately this exercise is not totally pointless....but you have to accept that from the point of view of an experienced sound designer(s) that no matter how long one spends on trying to emulate another synth....your never going to get 100%. Ive made Moog style bases on a Prophet 5 and upon closer inspection I know its probably only 25% of the way to being truly authentic. As I said before...you can adopt specific osc/filt/eg configurations that give you the impression that you've just emualted a classic synth...but upon closer inspection you are still waaaayyyy off from making a clone. The question back to you is....why should people who know this, invest time and effort into something they know they can't satisfactorily achieve?

And so would I m8.....but I wouldnt pass it off as a SuperSaw emulation.....id post it for those who want to know what a hypersaw sounds like and give an idea as to what it can do. I think the emphasis of this thread means well but is slightly misguided :wink:

Additionally....I dont think Access or TI users particularly want the hyper saw to become known as a Supersaw wannabe. Its important in this early stage that the hypersaw develops its own following....otherwise it will forever be the bitch slave on the dark side of the force.... :lol:

Hurrayyyyyy 8) !

DS :wink:

'Everyone else' is most people who listen to a lot of electronic music and everyone who doesn't. People on this board are well and truly the exception. 'Everyone Else' would pretty much class all synth noises in the one bracket, "What instrument is that?" "That's a synthesizer!"

Maybe a few will know about the 303, and heard of a moog but wouldn't be able to accurately pick one out.

Your attempts at recreating that classic moog sound will fool almost everyone :)

No one yet has seemed to set the records straight in the comparison/original question of this thread so hopefully I will be able to.

I've owned alot of VA's- Including a JP8080 rack, a JP8000, a virus a, virus rack, virus rack xl, virus indigo b, virus indigo 2, and currently we have 2 ti desktops- so I've got enough experience with both synths to make a proper comparison.

The JP80x0 Supersaw waveform is just 7 saws stacked, but have a different tonal characteristic for some reason- it just sounds cleaner when the JP stacks 7 saws. Using the Hypersaw on the Ti, you can acheive a similar sound, its not the exact same obviously but its close enough. Plus with the hypersaw and the Ti's sound engine, you can create alot more dynamic results with the Hypersaw than the Supersaw...

to make a long story short, for fat saw leads, I find (and with experience with both units) the virus Ti's Hypersaw to be much more effective.

I'm not trying anything special with this clip, just trying to do a semi decent emulation of a fat-saw-trance-pad. That clip of ATRC that the original poster uploaded is the JP being fully used, both parts running 2 supersaws and probably an additional 2 saws in the classic oscillators...with about 4 voices max polyphony. This clip is using 1 patch on the virus Ti...also with lower quality filter routing because the JP's suck.

edit: had to switch to yousendit hosting: Regular link (for all web browsers):
http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...K13OMXAIXWIZJ1

Hopefully thats what you're looking for,

Andrew

oh DS i can see totally where you are coming from and you dont have to worry about me not taking constructive criticism well - after all thats what discussion forums are for right? to get all of these issues out in the open ;)

but let me counter riposte...

i agree. but you have to understand that a large proportion of the human race wont really know what an oberheim is, let alone what an OB-1 sounds like.

sound design and music production in general is a very very subtle thing. i like to think that i am very familiar with how an access virus b sounds but i have been consistantly fooled by other producers into thinking it was another synth. it depends on so many things from how you program it to how much air you leave on, to how you process it both during and after production. ive near enough studied the difference between a real tb303 and an audiorealism's 303 emulation, bassline. and although there is definitely a difference on both saw and square (square more than saw) it is minute enough that most people wont be able to tell the difference.

what is the soul of a classic synth? do instruments have a soul or is it the instrumentalist that gives it a soul? are synths nothing but discrete electronic modules? are you talking about the random subtlties of analog? the subtle changes in pitch over time? the fact some of them have have quirky characteristics and flaws?

the virus is an interesting synth because it doesnt make it difficult to add a degree of randomness to a patch in order to make it sound...more 'alive'. mod matrix. source: random. detination: oscdetune or oscpitch. or whatever. with meticulous post processing you can get very very close.

this is a generalisation and you know it. i can only speak for myself of course but i am not jealous that someone out there has a real 303 and i only have a software clone. audiorealism bassline gives you 95% of the sound of the real thing at 1/10th of the cost of buying a second hand teebee. its also infinitely more convenient in every day use. you do the math. in fact, i am very satisfied with my digital clone and do not begrudge those that own and can afford to pay for analogue instruments.

but like i said, being able to recreate certain aspects of the sound of real acoustic and real analogue instruments shows just how versatile a synth is.

ive made acoustic cello sounds on my virus b. do they sound like real cellos? hell no. are they fairly close? apart from not being able to simulate the sound of bowing action and the resonances caused by specific types of hollow wood and the complex harmonic serieses, i would say they had most other bases covered. they certainly sound better than any acoustic cello sound i have made on any other VA. if access expanded the virus to include some of the technology as featured in, say, AAS string studio or synful orchestral would i get even closer? damn straight, and i would know how to program everything except the new modules.

its the same for analogue clones. the technology is always improving and our knowledge is provisional. but dont rule out the fact that we will never *be able* to perfectly clone analogue instruments. until the technology catches up (and the software devs get closer and closer with every revision), i am glad to spend my time trying to see and recreate some of the details in the sounds of synths i cannot afford. at the same time, the results quite often just make me even more glad i bought a virus b.

i wont speculate as to what access 'want' their customers to use their technology for. but sable dont specify what strokes you have to use with their paint brushes.

look at the situation though: access builds a new oscillator into their synth which simulates the sound of multiple saw waves detuned and panspread against each other. and they call it the 'hypersaw'? well. lets just say that the first comments i heard when the news broke over a year ago was 'supersaw killer.' on every forum i read news on the subject. even non trance forums.

it was always going to incite comparison with a name and function so similar. and if it sells virus TIs - then pat on the back for access. they did good. ultimately it is just a tool that increases the flexibility of an already very flexible synth. people knew the virus TI was every bit as much a virus as any other iteration. only with bells and whistles. and besides, the trance hobbyist market is huge. the number of people that i know bought virus TIs practically on impulse for the hypersaw ALONE is staggering. access just managed to tap into a very healthy sector of the market and i hope they continue to reap the benefits.

its more a case of thinking outside of the box. our knowledge of production and sound design in on going. in my opinion we are all undergoing a pretty much constant learning process. we are always learning new things or refining and re evaulating what we already know in light of new knowledge.

but to suggest that you buy a virtual analogue instrument to only create virtual analogue stock sounds is such a narrow approach. i will try to emulate any sound i hear that i find compelling and interesting enough to warrant the excercise. in the end i will at least learn something new about how that sound is made. or how it is definitely not made if i should not be way off the mark. but look at the presets on your virus - how many presets are oberheim emulations? moog emulations? 303 emulations? how many flute and violin and cello sounds do you see on it?

pseudo303 and all the univov patches are 303 clones. the univov ones are wayyy wayyyy off the mark. they sound nothing like 303s in my opinion. but they nevertheless sound good.

and this brings me onto my final point about derivation in art. it is common in any learning process to copy the work of a master before you feel confident enough to create your own work. and it is also common, that in the process of copying someone else's work, (or sound in this case) that you will not get it quite right.

that your copy will be imperfect. but sometimes, and this happen alot for me, there is something about the sound of my copy that i like, that isnt necessarily what i like about the original sound. so i will keep reiterating this and incorporating/deriving new ideas from other original sounds. and over time, this will become *my* sound.

in my opinion you should not be so quick to condemn attempts at understanding/emulating and copying because the process of making sound and music is just like any other art, largely derivative of what came before.

andrewbayer: You nailed it pretty close :)

Good work!

Yeh - good job - maybe add a bit of analog boost at about 1-2k to nail it exactly :)

I was messing around on my v-synth with this as well - *very* easy to reproduce on that - in fact one of the presets is quite close with a little tweaking. I wonder if its "megasaw" is modelled after the jp supersaw.

the latest OS of the v-synth and the v-synth xt have the entire JP8000 engine built into it. so it should be able to recreate supersaws easily - it has supersaw oscillators.

either way - this is a supersaw i built from scratch on my virus b:

http://media.putfile.com/Virus-B-Supersaw

second attempt. note that this does have the following external effects on it:

fruity chorus (you can use any chorus as long as it has an EQ)
fruity delay 2
SIR reverb (PCM91 concert hall impulse)

also, weirdly enough, mr crosland is right. you can get close to the sound of the supersaw oscillator by high shelfing the bog standard saw oscillators. i noticed that the supersaw oscillator has alot of top end and alot of bassy weight but the mids get drowned out. that patch has an EQ on it with a high shelf above 10 khz and a low shelf below 200 hz.

i imagine it is even easier to replicate on a virus TI because the hypersaw oscillator is more suited to the task. and you have the 3 band EQ from the VC.

Andy's Hypersaw is great. I actually prefer that over the JP8000 clip. It sounds meatier (the JP8K clip sounds bass-light), but I must admit I prefer the filter cutoff action on the JP8K when the filter's nearing being opened up wide/fully.

Btw, how many poles do the JP8000 filter(s) have? Sounds like the JP8K clip has a subtle, wide-Q boost (ie. a subtle wide-bandwidth resonance) at the cutoff frequency point, as opposed to it sounding already "flat" when it's nearly fully opened (like the Virus, a bit).

Aaaaarrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh.

You don't buy a Ford Fiesta and then try and turn it into a Vauxhall Corsa or buy an apple and then try and turn it into an orange. (and don't start me on bananas!)

Just buy/borrow a bloody JP8000 and enough already.

And to be fair I am sure most people on here have got better things to do than create and post sound files for you - repeatedly. Maybe we can also cut your grass and perhaps wash your car while we are at it...

If you are that desperate borrow/hire one and multisample it into a decent bit of PC/MAC software. Try these guys www.fxgroup.net I am sure they will get you one.

finds dummy on floor

Where did this come from? :D

No, I understand entirely where you're coming from. But, on the other hand, the truth is that Access are cashing in on the supersaw legend, so you can appreciate that people will naturally want to compare the two in order to discern the differences.

Wasn't aimed at you Timo - more so the person who was whingeing about no-one posting bloody soundfiles. It's called can't be arsed.

and

i can see you going real faaar with that attitude.

if you cant be arsed and you do not have anything constructive to add to the thread, why do you even bother replying?

cars and synthesizers are not comparible. why? because with synthesizers it is possible to emulate certain sounds from other synths, then change it back to a good old virus - synths are flexible like that.

modifying a car into another one makes it extremely difficult to turn it back into the old car because changes are permanent.

as an owner of a virus TI the thread starter can choose to make whatever sounds he wants on his synth. have you looked at your virus preset library recently? a number of patches are emulations of classic sounds from other hardware - minimoog clones, OB clones, 303 clones.

if your sound design is poor and you have loads of disposable income then sure, go ahead and buy a JP8000. while you are at it try finding the $5000 you would need to get a used minimoog, 303 and OB-1.

but doing that doesnt give you a better understanding of the synth you already own. that doesnt make you a better sound designer or producer. and it lumbers you with a new learning curve on new instruments.

i am tired of people saying it isnt possible to create supersaws or emulate analogue sounds on virus and dismissing it with 'cannot be done.'

just because YOU cannot does not automatically mean WE cannot.

if you do not want to post any raw waveforms that is perfectly up to you. just dont bother telling us in this thread. dont bother posting at all. im sure you have plenty of other things you could be 'busy' with.

good day to you sir.

Go for it....I like discussion...


Agreed

I dont quite follow what you mean - are you saying that some of your friends have made sounds on a virus and it led you to believe it came from another synth?

For some sounds.....possibly yes.....post production etc could/can make certain digital/VA sounds 'sound analog.' However, Id have to emphasise....only a few sounds could get away with this....

Ive watched the Bob Moog documentary several times over (and I own a copy - its worth it!) and theres an interview with Bob, Rick Wakeman and a few others.....and they comment on the 'soul' factor. In fact Rick refers to it as the 'X' factor....and to him atleast its what makes a synth a GREAT synth. Im of the impression that instrumentalists such as Rick and Vangelis exploit this soul, make it their own and go on to define new genres of music....whilst the rest of us are foaming at the mouths trying to make 20 year old emulations on modern equipment.

To the second part....yes....I believe the soul in a synth comes from the subtle variations of analog components and their interaction with one another. A true analog sound is an organic/alive sound.....a digital sound is of 'playback' quality....Both can be used to great effect.....but using just digital coupled with modern digital recording practicies makes for boring records IMHO.

Sadly, I recently looked into analog recording....the equipment needed to make semi pro level recordings and its sooo expensive. Such a shame...

Thats interesting....and at the end of the day personal opinion on both our parts. When I had the Virus KC....there was nothing I could do to evoke analog randomness to the sound. I tried everything.....using mod matrix, subtle detunings, subtle amounts of distortion or what ever you fancy will not be the same as the effortless randomness you get with say a Prophet 5 or Mono-Poly.

Most people who make a retro sounding patch on a VA are happy with that....to them its good enough....and dare I say...serves the purpose for them. But for me.....its not good enough. I dont know what this says about me.....but its just where im different to other people. BTW.....i like the use of VA for sounds other than analog emulation. I like the 'analog style controls'......but I think VA's come into their own when making 'outhere' type sounds.

It will be interesting to see if this ever happens. If it did....I still think the sound will have a digital sheen to it. Id love to know what causes that digital, glassy sheen that is heard on all digital synths. If one could remove that....then I think you'd be alot closer to an authentic experience.

Theres no harm in that....its ironic....but im trying to make super modern sounds using a DX7 right now...and yes!....it is fun 8)

Agreed, the best way to learn sound design is to experiment and realise what a synth can and can't do. For instance, the DX7 is my first synth that has 3 8 stage envelope generators for rate, level and pitch. The pitch EG's are interesting.....if your wanting acoustic simulations of bass, guitar, flute, organs etc etc....then you must have a pitch EG.

A good point m8....and a nice way to end our discussion 8)

DS

WK wind your neck in - It was supposed to be a bit of fun!

In my opinion having read the entire thread I felt that the originator was being a little bit too vocal in his repetitive asking of people to spend considerable time in making/creating/posting sounds for him to listen to. In fact a few people expressed the opinion that they cannot be bothered on this point - and that includes me.

All of my posts are generally intended to be good humoured - as was the one in question and should not be taken personally or to heart. It sounds to me like someone is a bit too sensitive for their-own good and has taken my (tongue in cheek) advice the wrong way. (try Yoga or breathing techniques - my friend reckons stroking cats also helps but he has since been arrested for this.)

As for not being constructive I think you will find that I offered PLENTY of constructive advice - it may just be that you did not want to hear it.

The beauty of forums like these, are that they enable people with similar interests to express an opinion (right or wrong!) That is what I have done - and WILL continue to do.

I hold no grudges pal.

im used to the SA forums where worthless posts get you banned. thats just a product of having 60,000 forum posters and sometimes, i tend to take that view elsewhere. its not intentional. just habit. and if it seems like i am sensitive i am not. i just dont see the point of replying to a thread in which you cannot be bothered to contribute anything meaningful to. is this an unreasonable point of view?

i fail to see the point in taking the time out to tell the threadstarter that you cannot be bothered to help him out in his own thread. how very constructive of you. i mean, what the fucking christ is that all about? i also fail to see how any of what i quoted from you could be considered 'lighthearted,' 'humerous' or a 'bit of fun.'

back on topic though, i finally think im close to nailing a supersaw on a virus b...

heres the result:

http://media.putfile.com/Virus-B-Supersaw-v231

same high shelf is on it as before. detune is way up this time and unison detune is maxed. this is actually a multipatch but i cannot play it in realtime because it exceeds the voice limit of my virus b by a long way.

i had to up unison to x5 on the intervals. the sub part has unison cranked up to x8 and has the sub oscillator mixed in. the intervals and sub were recorded separately. then spliced together in soundforge.

the lower you play notes on the virus, the more buzzy the saw becomes. the JP supersaw can go really low (below C3) and it sounds really smooth. i kind of fluked through this and realised that the higher unison is, on low notes (below C4), the more fuzzy and smooth it sounds and it covers up the buzzing somewhat.

i normally dont like detune up this high because certain notes above C6 sound almost out of tune. but that was the only way i could get the fuzz like the reference sound im using.

i went back to a previous revision and redid all of the post processing. i will post the raw sound as well as the interval and sub parts separately to show you what a vast difference a high shelf can do and it abley demonstrates just how lacking in top end the virus saw/square is. overall its something of a pain in the ass to assemble.

you can definitely get very very close though. provided you have enough voices and the high shelf. again TI users will be laughing all the way to the trance factory...

Wandering Kid, im loving that patch 8O

any chance of u posting it up or emailing it to me if u have time?

keithie_boy@hotmail.com

i am reluctant to give it away because i use most of the sound assets i create.

however, i did post fairly detailed instructions on how i build an earlier version of this patch in the main forum only a few days ago. should still be there. together with the info i posted in this thread you should be able to build something very much like it.