and last i checked i was producing music for dancefloors.
not for some jo blogg with a boombox
and the only thing that burst my buble was the limitation
of the total intergration.
sorry to say it.but its true.
if you love it im happy for you.It is a beast
but it isnt all it claims..but of course they use the perfect wording
hell i thought the thing was gonna be capable of freakin 192!!!
i thought this is great i can try that out.

the slicker your sound tha better.
and it has been my experiance(and plenty of others)that i can achieve a better sound mixing @ 24/96.
theres really should be real no argument there.

Nut....

In principle i dont disagree with you....im always out for good recordings...but until SACD is embraced by the buying public then the benfits of higher rates will always be curtailed. I would love the virus ti to ultimately run at 24/192 through Mlan....but we're some ways off that....

But remember.....most synths internal engines run at 24/44 the nord 2x being the exception (which runs at 24/96)...and you have to use analog outs. So why cant you use the Virus TI's 24/192 internal engine through the analog outs? Yes, perhaps you need an audio interface with 8 ins and outs...

DS

well thats the point with the ti i thought i wouldnt have to buy an additional
io because mine only has 1 analog in/out and 16 digital.

and you miss the point.
i dont care if the soundsource is 16/44
it is the mixing and digital summing i want in 24/96

but if you want to use the total intergration
you are forced to work @ 16/44

funny noone has even confirmed that it isnt or is possible

i want to load my host and set its mixing and recording rate to
24/96.
i then want to use the total intergration to stream 4 streams into
the computer.
is it possible?

Ok, but what benefit is there of recording something at 24/96 when its source is 'only' 16/44?

As a hifi analogy....thats like using a ?2000 amplifier on a ?200 CD player. Since the CD player is the most fundemental component of any hifi (it reads the data from the disk...and information lost at this stage cannot be recovered later on down the chain i.e. amplifier/speakers) it makes sense to have more money invested in a pristine CD player and a lesser amplifier.

Im just trying to logically understand why you place so much emphasis on 24/96 recordings when your sources are less than this (particualrly digital sources)

As a side note...if you were recording using analog synths...then id agree with you....but we're talking about digital synths arent we?

Help me understand....

DS

man.....
why do i have to explain to you what anyone with a bit of knowledge in digital recording already knows.
goggle it or go to school or something.there is plenty of information
about the advantages of recording and mixing @ higher rates.
even if the source material and end medium is lower
plenty of it ...
im glad it sparked your interest.

Nut...

I still cant figure out why you dont just use the analogue outs??? I know your soundcard only has stereo In, but is this in use ALL the time???? Cant you just get a small patch bay, and patch in the Virus Ti when you have finished with your MIDI parts and ready to bounce to audio?????? And then patch back in whatever is using it up all the time.

Surely that is not a hassle. Then you get to work in 24/96.

yes unfortunatly it is most all the time in use.
this is why i thought the TI was going to be just what i needed
i wouldnt have to fuss around with another i/o
it is an i/o

unfortunatly it is a weak i/o :(

and the argument that cd are just 16 bit anyway holds little relavence these days
because current dithering algorythms allow for cd audio signals
on par with 20bit or greater.

So how about buying a patch bay???? I know this is not the answer you are looking for, but it is a way that you can continue to work in 24/96 and use the new Virus!

Edit: How come the Inputs are in use ALL the time??? Is it because you have no external mixer????

i have been using a smallish dj mixer
for just master volume control
lately i have been mixing 100% internal

the analog input is always being used to feed my computer my
turntables.

i could get a patch bay..
but this isnt why i was purchasing the ti
it was because i thought i could just plug the usb cable in
and have the audio routed right into my host.
this made it very attractive to a person with a lack of
analog inputs.
i could mix outboard,i could get a patchbay,i could buy an additional i/o
but i though it was supposed to intergrate.

no big deal i have no vendetta against access
it is a huge sounding synth

but to try and downplay the problem that you are forced to set your host
at 16/44 to use the "total intergration" is silly
its named after it for christ sake

and to try and make me out to be some kind of fringe type of user
is also silly.
plenty of others will be disapointed by this.

nutekk: i agree with some of your points, i think it's a case of 'let the buyer beware', and i don't blame you for being angry.

i think it's a case of misunderstanding USB. i'm not that familiar with it, but i thought it was only capable of sending 2 stereo streams of audio.

if it's capable of two 16/44.1 streams, it seems there should be some kind of 'ADAT SMUX' (or whatever) fix.

in other words, maybe the whole usb bandwidth could somehow be used to transfer one stereo stream of 24/96 - but i guess it's not there yet, and maybe never will be.

i went back to the Access site and read the specs over several times.

they justifiably repeat the fact that it has 24/192 analog converters.

they also state that it's USB2 compatible.

for someone like myself who doesn't know 'all that much' about it, i naturally assumed it would be capable of doing 24/96 over usb.

apparently that's not the case.

i always set my projects at 32/44.1 in cubase. it's my understanding that the floating point 32 bit gives you extra 'headroom' to avoid 'rounding errors' when using processing and fx and whatever.
this supposedly gives you a more accurate signal too dither down to 16 bits.
i defintely can hear the difference when recording at 16 or 24 bits. the 'airiness' of 96 versus 48 or 44.1 is much less apparent to me.

i guess it boils down to 'i'm a little disappointed that the TI can't send 24/96 over usb.'

ya, in the end, it's up to the user to know that kind of stuff and access has no real responsibility to disclose it, but i think it would have helped them rather than possibly pissing people off, had they done so.

thanks for getting the name right :D

yea from reading the specs i would have never known.
still there is no official answer!

yes one 24/96 stream would be nice!
i would reconsider the purchase right away.
but i dont think its going to be possible.

cheers and enjoy the virus!

Ok, So forgive me for jumping in this. Did someone says you have to have your host set at 16/44 for the virus Ti to work correctly? Is this true, cause I didnt see it in the book. Also I've had my g5/logic 7 set to the "24bit recording" could this be why My Virus timing is lagging?

thanks

you would probably be best off ignoring the ti function all togather
and use a midi cable and the analog outs!
at least for now.

For the record, you are able to work at 48Khz with the TI. I know it won't be of much appeal to the 96K-heads, but still.

Nuttek, are you aware that all of the major Hollywood music production teams are still working at 44.1? Granted, it's 24/44.1, but they are not using 96. I guess it can't be that bad..

Just to help out nutekk a bit, I agree with the 96 mixing thing and the missleading 24/192 converter and usb2 compatable sales pitch.

Bottom line is the virus engine is supposidly running at 48khz no matter what you set the asio driver at, ie it runs at 48khz or down sampled to 44.1khz for usb

Can anyone verify if you can actually do a progect at 96khz with the usb audio connection. Maybe Access could implement upsampling in the viruscontrol side after the usb has sent it over at 48Khz.

Who knows what for the analog outs. Are the analog outs running at 192Khz all the time or is it Asio driver linked? Id like them to be running at the highest rate when in use in stand-alone mode, but then will upsampling a 48Khz virus sound any better?

All these questions would be good to have as marketting specs you know.
At the very least put this shit in the manual.

thats quite bold statement...
man you love talking in absolutes.
a quick google could debunk that

and if your talking about film it would be 48hz.
and even there it isnt true because they have many sources
it is all just converted.
as for music production your way off in saying that they all mix in 24/44

but no matter the ti cant do 24 bit digital at all
so whats the point.

and i never said 16/44 doesnt sound ok!
16/44 can sound great.

i will tell you it is easyer to get great results mixing @ higher rates then 16/44 which the virus ti cant do (or should i say prevents your host from doing) utilizing its total intergration feature.
which is crazy because even dodgy vsti and effects dont hold you back from this.

which is fine
becuase it is a unique synth
and you can can use the analog outs.

but if using the analog outs
the total intergration aspect becomes nothing but a mear novelty

why would i want to use a plugin when i have the hardware right infront of me?
you still have to record your midi actions the same either from the screen
or from the unit itself.so whats the deal
isnt that a reason why people buy hardware ..so they dont have to deal
with a plugin?

a librarian?
you have heard of sounddiver?
ahh the arp programing...hmm kinda sucks that you *have to use the
computer mumbojumbo to program it.

so the big advantage is midi over a usb cable and a plugin that
you can control with a mouse for whatever reason i dont know because
the hardware is right infront of you.

i guess if you had a long enouph usb cable you could put the ti in the closet so nobody can see it?
if i had one i would want to show it off!

this is the "Total Intergration" that i have been eagerly awaiting for months.

this TI aspect is what makes the deal sour.The virus synth engin is art.
but one has to think how much of the premium price am i paying for
a catch phrase "total intergration"

you could have skipped all that and put a pair of lightpipe outs on the unit. and i would be running for the unit at this price!!!
but instead its just a gimmick
and one that access didnt need at all :cry:

Well, this information came straight from someone who works in the industry. What can I say?

*shrugs*

man your being sort of a mook.
instead of confirming any of this
you choose to make useless comments

"Can anyone verify if you can actually do a progect at 96khz with the usb audio connection"

that would be helpful.

this is the question! my first post
but no answers

and furthermore!!!!!! :o

Nutekk

Quit your winning....just use the Virus Ti's analog outs. Fuck the integration bit.....just get on with it. Dont feel too hard done by....

Your stressing over nothing - you either want a Virus or you dont. You just seem to be looking for reasons not to buy. Ok, in your opinion the Ti side of things seems to dissapoint you....well you could always wait a couple of years for the MKII which im sure will address the concerns. Alternatively you could just view this new Virus as a mega powerful version of whats gone before. With the TI bit aside....its still a powerful synth. Ah, but alas....your going to need more inputs....awe :lol:

The TI spec is set....thats how it is. Im not even buying the TI and i have no ambiguity over the specs. If you read carefully....Access never specifically claimed 'this' or 'that'.

DS

It did occur to me that the TI audio over USB for me is running at 48KHz, and yet I am running Cubase at 44.1KHz.

So maybe there is your answer. I dont really want to mess with the Cubase sample rate to try what happen at 96K as it means re-configuring a whole long chaing of master clocks and usually several power cycles and reboots before everything settles down again.

yea well i need clarification befor i spend 2300 dollars on a synth
that does claim to " be leading the world in a completely new direction with musical instrument and pro-audio convergence"

and i never realized that you had to anticipate access using clever wording
as to not say this and that.

and whats it friggin to you?
i have one of these on preorder waiting for it to ship!
i need answers


tell access to go f&ck the intergration bit
and f&ck it off the cost too!
wonder how much pointless money in R&D owners have to front
for the total intergration.

mind your buisness

this would be helpful!
it really shouldnt hurt anything...switching it to 96ki just for a sec to see if you get the 48k streams internally ok...
it would solve the problem

its all i want to know
and i have to fight my way with all this bs just to get
some god damn verification

for cryin out loud!

no one answers not access not ben freakin crosland
what i do get is these people that ask me questions and tell me what i want to do isnt this or that
and want me to explain why and how

and i get advise from ben crosland on how his buddy that works in the "industry" sais this and that..

please this is so unprofessional
answer the question.
it may very well work and all this is for nothing.

again im not wanting the usb stream to be @ 24/96
it is great @ 16/44
but
does this limit the host resolution in any way!


...
jesus
(and khazul im not directing this @ you...but if you feel like testing it would be great)

Look man, if I were in the same position as you...id be wanting clarification aswell (so in principle...im not disagreeing with you). As far as Access using clever wording goes....yes....but this is the way capitalist society works. You should see the marketing terminology used at the launch of the Prophet 5 (on board memories!) back in 1978.

The TI integration bit is strictly true. It does integrate.....but how far that integration went should have been clear to most tech wizards when they mentioned USB1.1. Yes, your paying a high price for all the R&D thats gone into this....thats why im waiting a few years for the MKII....so that I get better value for money. Its people like you...who are spending hard earned money on the TI thats going to make the MKII something really special. Give yourself a nice pat on the back for that. Cheers!

DS :lol:

OK, ill stop the sarcassim now. Truth is, if i could afford a TI right now...id buy it. I'll always use analog outs......i'll do anything to eliminate fuss over recordings...

DS

more headroom for a start. additionally, you can work in 24 bit/96 khz and dither down to 16 bit/44 khz for cd. a dithered 24 bit to 16 bit render will *always* sound better than a straight all in 16 bit render.

ill explain. dithering is the process of adding low level noise to a recording. if you know what it is, then you know where this is heading and i need to explain no more. if you dont, ill explain for the benefit of the uninitiated.

imagine a picture in photoshop of a puppy. saved from a digital camera, its a 32 bit bitmap which is capable of displaying 16.8 million colours.

now imagine you save this file as an 8 bit 16 colour bitmap. what happens is that there are not enough colours to accurately display the puppy and instead you get flat blocks of colour in the rough shape of a puppy. hardly any detail is perceived. no individuals hairs of fur. colour changes in visible gradiants because theres only 16 available colours etc.

theres a tool in photoshop called dither and in principle its the same in sound technology. dither adds speckled noise to an image when its rerendered.

if you were to take that 32 bit, 16.8 million colour bitmap and dither it down to 8 bit and 16 colours, you would still have a 16 colour palette but you will notice that the image has more detail than the undithered render. the speckled noise creates this stipled effect - colour gradients appear smoother because of the stipling. overall there is more detail in the original image retained. you can do this with any photo provided you have a photo manipulation program that can dither and see the results yourself.

transpose that idea to digital recording. 96,000 khz recordings have double the resolution and whilst the impact that has on sound fidelity is only barely noticeable to the human ear, its much the same thing as people scrapping over the sound of a real tb-303 and a fake. the difference in sound terms in minute, not even noticeable to 99% of the human race. yet once you notice it, you CANNOT GO BACK. same deal with classic analogue synth sounds and digital clones.

additionally, you will get less phasing problems caused by aliasing which if you work with digital synthesizers IS going to happen to various degrees and in many cases you will find you have more headroom than if you worked in 16 bit and 44 khz all the way through.

overall, working in 96 khz is a good idea and i would recommend it. the only downsides are that some soundcards have less audio ins/outs when working at higher sample rates and the cpu hit is much much higher. but these are things which you can work around by changing your workflow and bouncing more often. other than that i see absolutely no reason why you should not work in 24 bit/96 khz and dither down to 16 bit when you are finished. plenty of producers and engineers have been doing precisely this for years. whilst it would be a shame if the TI couldnt stream in 24/96, i guess its not that much of a problem. just render all parts from the virus in a separate project file and import into your 24/96 project. i appreciate this would negate much of the total integration feature of the synth but come on. its not the end of the world. theres enough in this latest iteration of the virus to warrant a new hardware revision. and if you aint happy, take it back and get a second hand virus c for less than half the price. then everyone is happy.

thats very intersting Wandering Kid-great stuff.

my opinion of the differences in bit rate and frequency rate, is
(firstly, increadibly layman , but here goes)

24 bit sounds slightly clearer than 16 bit, but adds to me a slight haunting
feeling.
16 bit has more of that thick silvery edge, however the sound also has a slight more 3D deepness, whether it is an artificial caused by this silveriness. still the 16 bit feel s more balanced to me.

mp3s actually hurt me because one doesnt breath as freely, when listening to them. It has an unnatural stifling. and if all music was in mp3 then i would never listen to music again.

there are frequencies that cant be heard but can definately be felt, and mp3s cut out those too much.

Infact i am certain that constant listening to mp3s will create international health problems like constipation epidemics

If the virus works @16bit, it doesn't mean that your sequencer's engine and other plugins will work @ 16bit. However I'm still not sure if the TI works @ 24bit or 16bit 44.1kHz/48kHz but it doesn't matter. If the TI outputs only @ 16bit, it just is a 16bit sound. The same thing if you play 16bit samples in Logic or Cubase. The rest of the project won't get limited to 16 bits. The sample rate here is the key, not the bit depth. Sample rates must be the same. Otherwise the sound sources cannot be synced and mixed.

I respect your opinion about sample rates too, but what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't automatically mean that you have to work @ 16bits if the sample rate is 44.1kHz or 48kHz.

actually ben's reply was hilariously ironic. the one about mp3s.

it seems quite funny that more and more effort is expended on the kind of audiophile higher than cd quality that only a tiny proportion of the world's population will ever notice even with side by side comparison (producers and engineers mostly). and yet that effort will go into a song which will invariably get pirated a thousand times over using a compression medium that is sub cd quality. as if most people didnt already notice the difference, they sure as hell wont after that.

thats pretty ironic. i mean i dont know whether to laugh or cry at the futility of it all.

I have the same results with 24bit/44.1 as I do with 16bit/44.1
The Ti seems to work fine with both settings. Just too much lag to actually use the USB while writing music.

I have come to terms with just using the midi connection and then when Im ready to record the Virus, I'll use the USB to stream the audio in. Then go in and adjust the start time of the wave/track manually. That or just use the outputs. I am bummed it wont do 48 or higher.

I still love the unit and think it sounds great. Minus the few pops and crackles.

i've used several audio cards with my computers that have worked at 16, 20, and 24 bits.

but for as long as i've had access to 32 bit recording (since VST/32), i've recorded at that rate no matter what the soundcard rate was.

i guess what i'm saying is that AFAIK the interface bit depth and the recording program bit depth are independent.

i'd be very surprised to find out that it works differently with USB.

i guess the issue is at what bit depth does the TI send data thru USB?

if it's 16 bits, i would definitely use the analog outs.

technomonster wrote
i woke up this morning and everything sounds different again. 24 bit doesnt sound too haunting, maybe one of my ears is infected again.
or maybe it always has. :wink: :wink:

You need to set youself up with blind tests to work out if you can tell :)

The DPSs of the Virus TI work with 24bit. The samplerate of them is 44.1 or 48kHz, this depends on your project/ASIO settings, the Virus adapts to these rates. You can also wordclock the Virus via SPDIF.

The USB audio transfer is 16bit.

For other rates, like using a 96kHz project, the Virus Control does provide you with an appropriate audio stream.

The Virus will not prevent you using your prefered project environment. Just try it.

The Plugin does also reflect your changes via the hardware, when you tweak the knobs, the changes are shown to the GUI of the plugin and also to the automation of your sequencer, so it allows you to automate all its Parameters within the VST domain, something a large count of people prefer over MIDI.

Also, the complete state of your Virus is saved in your song, so it is totally integrated in your project, no more extra track and make an arrangement dump and all this fiddeling you need with other synths and additional files to backup.

When you are using the analog outs, you still have sample accurate MIDI timing.

The TI aspect is to bring the users the best of both worlds, making the handling of a hardware sequencer easier for production and allow you to tweak where you sit, no matter which way you prefer.

And there is no need to use the "ASIO Soundcard feature", but I personally find it very useful, when you just have your Polar and your Laptop on the road, it spares a mixer and an additional soundcard.

Sounddiver is a discontinued application from former Emagic, that is not available on the Windows platform. The Mac OS X version is still beta. The complexity of the Virus TI line can not be easily ported to the Sounddiver Virus module, which is provided by Access for the former Virus lines.

There are other products to fill that gap, but afaik the range of supported devices by sounddiver has not been beaten yet.

The librarian functionality of the Virus Control is a bit more sophisticated than sounddiver and does not need to deal with application compatibility problems like shared MIDI ports, installing MIDI Port Faker software etc.

You are right, you can not edit the user arp pattern from the hardware alone, but would that be fun?

For every other aspect you don't have to use the mouse. You can either work with the hardware or the mouse, the VST Plugin is just a view into the virus.

You also don't need to waste precious MIDI ports on your 4x4 or 8x8 MIDI interface, the TI comes with its own, actually it brings you two, even if you never use the Virus Control, when you are using the USB connection.

The Virus TI price has not been increased compared to the other Virus product lines. The "feature count" has.

If you are not satisfied with the "Total Integration" aspect we welcome all of your suggestions.

tk

tk, can you solve this doubt I have?

you open an instance of Virus Control in your sequencer, right? and you use a sound, you modify it but don't store it into the Virus (like for example using a preset and modify it but not saving that edited sound as a preset.) Then you close your sequencer. When you open your sequencer again, that edited but not stored sound is still there? I mean, that's the way I work with vst synths, I don't necessarily store the sound I'm working with as a preset and when I open the song again the sound is still there.

does it work like that with the TI?

Well I guess you heard the one about more channels and higher sample rates and bit depths. :D

I'll be happy using the analog outs that's for sure, I'm still abusing my virus b.. :wink:

holy hell!
this was the question i asked in the beginning of all this crap.
:D :) :D :) :D :) :) :lol: :D :) :) :) :) :) :lol: :D :) :lol: 8)

this negates all i have said in negative comments!
my order is going to go through.
much of this could have been avoided...
why so long to answer?
well it doesnt even matter.
this was my only gripe and it turns out to be none at all!

well its been fun :wink:
thank you

nutekk (another happy access virus ti user)!

We do not regulary read all these forums, now it is weekend and I do it even I shouldn't.

Usually, just ask our support line, which would have answered your question in less than 24 hours.

Again: this is an "unofficial" forum, neither hosted nor driven by us. We are happy to help here, too, but you have to accept that we are not around here all the time since we have jobs to do.

tk