Thanks Ben. :)

Mad, great demo. It really does have "that sound" (prob'ly cos it is, but. ;) ). So recognisable. Were the effects you used native to the JP80x0, or were they external?

Thanks for the links, guys! Not my scene tbh, but it helps me get a much clearer picture of what people expect.

No, really it helps a lot - to get something completely different from the JP sound. Maybe the trance guys might not like the HyperSaw>AnalogLP Filter sound, but trust me, the d'n'b guys are gonna love it! :twisted:

Well, of course it can pretty easily, because you can have 2x[9 saws+9 subs] in single voice mode, but unison is still pretty tempting because of the pan spread (the saws in the Hypersaw do not pan spread on their own btw - the 'Spread' parameter controls the detuning between the saws.)

Timo: all internal fx, NO external processing so that's why there is no reverb and no eq :)

I can't wait to see the messe demo for the TI :D

Great demo madstation. The JP's onboard chorus & delay are also very good. No need for external chorus or delay. I use only external eq & reverb if I need. If I hear correctly you used the 12dB/oct. filter for the demo. I always use the 12dB filter cause it sounds softer and maybe fatter too. Btw. the last 3 seconds sound very massive, like the JP sounds at it's best! :) And like I said earlier too, after some point the extra saw waves don't bring more fatness or power to the sound without spoiling the sound. JP supersaw with 2 layers is about the maximum which still sounds very good.

Don't worry, you'll save your money because they can never get that JP sound out of Virus TI, trust me. In fact ben already kind of admitted that trance is not his scene ("Not my scene tbh, but it helps me get a much clearer picture of what people expect. ") but d'n'b guys are gonna love the hypersaw + "minimoog" filter. In fact that's just the reason why a 100% JP supersaw replica cannot be done, if the designers are not fully aware of the original sound and how people expect it to sound. Like I said the filter is in very important role here too. And of course it's also a good thing that the hypersaw won't sound like jp supersaw.

My saying that 'trance is not my scene' is a long way off saying I can't do those sorts of sounds, and was not meant in any way to have an underlying meaning. There are also many sound designers who excel at them, so my abilities in that regard are irrelevant anyway.

Whether or not we can make sounds that would fool people into thinking they are hearing a JP remains to be seen (and tbh will almost certainly need a designer who owns both machines), but in actual fact it is not this which is important - what is important is that we can make patches which fulfill the requirements of these sounds, and I'm 100% confident that the TI can deliver.

I agree with F5D about the "good thing." Personally, I think the supersaw is the most over-used synth sound in "trance" music today. The fucking thing is everywhere. Why would you want the virus to sound like the 80X0 box anyways. You buy a virus for the virus sound not the 80X0 sound. Just think of the "different" possible sounds that will be in your hands with the new hypersaw algorithim. All this being said, I can guarantee you the Hypersaw will probably become just as huge as the supersaw. THe thing will probably be all over records over the next 2-4 years or until access adds a new algorithim. Just my .02 :wink:

I agree with all of the above as well - but there will be plenty of potential users who want the supersaw leads and pads, that's for sure. I would certainly prefer it in the end if the TI sound becomes an extension to the palette, rather than waste it's potential in imitation.

Certainly, I won't be attempting 1-1 clones of the JP sounds for one simple reason: I can't be bothered. I find patch cloning to be very tedious, and when you try to emulate another instrument, you're always going to be on a loser from the start, as the fans of that instrument will never accept anything but the original. In the end I much prefer to take inspiration from other sounds, and then let the patch evolve into something I like playing with - patch creation has to be an enjoyable process, otherwise I find the magic is missing..

Amen! :lol:

I think its stupid to say a sound is over used in any genre of music. Is an electric guitar overused in metal? is a violin overused in classical? They are both used in 99% of songs in those genres but you never hear anything about that. A sound is what you make of it. I never tire of hearing the supersaw in trance as long as its used in a way that makes the song appealing to me, the same as any other sound. If a song does not appeal to me then its the producer that has failed to impress me, not the sounds involved.

ten

To each their own. I can respect what you have to say here.

It think it'd be good if the Hypersaw sounded different to the Supersaw, as we already have the supersaw, although the supersaw is definately a hard act to follow!!

However, a modelled JP8 filter (amongst others) would be nice to add to the Moog in the Virus! :)

Mad - I'm really quite surprised how sweet that sounded without external processing. Like, radio-ready and rip roaring to go. It really does sound polished from the off. I've never had the chance to play with a JP80x0, though, but it sounds amazing.

The supersaw/hypersaw sounds like it would be great for moody film soundtracks, too, with long attacks and releases. Pads, etc.

you've actually summed up how i write music ;) pretty succintly too. thats why my username on tranceaddict is 'derivative'

my music is mostly derived from the inspiration i get from other songs. i hear a sound i like. i try to recreate it. but its never exact. and i always find something different about it which is worth evolving. and eventually it grows into something else.

i think those supersaw patches are a good starting point. to get to something which hopefully might just sound even better but in a slightly different way. good luck.

you are right. the supersaw is a cliche. but theres a reason why sounds like this become cliched in the first place - because they sound fucking phat. the 303 is even more omnipresent than the supersaw and i still cant get enough of that sound. its so beautiful in its simplicity and its character. supersaws arent hard to build either. but theres something about that sound i cant get enough of. with just the right amount of detune (not too much mind) it has the pure string kind of quality. which is just...i dunno. really pure sounding. i can understand why people use it to death.

even when i become bored and jaded with these sounds, ill always remember how blown away i was when i first heard them and first tried to recreate them. im not about to deny anyone the pleasure to be had in building their first 303 acid line, or their first supersaw. or the pleasure of hearing it from a new generation of synthesizers.

that said. using the supersaw as a reference point for something to build upon. derive something new out of it. thats what im interested in with the TI hypersaw. ben's patches so far have been pretty stonking. im trying to imagine a cold wavetable crossing over into a warm, fat analogue hypersaw pad. hmmmmm. yummy. and once we've established what this thing can do in terms i can understand, i feel i can begin to start thinking about what else is possible on the machine. but i really am curious to hear if the hypersaw can hit that 'sweet spot' the JP can do with VA detuned spread leads. the regular virus could never quite touch upon that warmth and solidity that the JP had when it was full on. my virus b always sounds sibilant on the top end and when the filter is fully open it sounds mute and fuzzy. not fat and crunchy when im using multiple saws, detune, spread and unison. the virus is awesome for plucked type leads though. wow. thats one aspect of the virus i cant get enough of.

I agree. It's not the instrument's fault if the player cannot play it well. I love the JP8000 supersaw and I love the virus too.

For some reason when I played on the JP8000 I thought it was a pretty dull sounding synth. I spent about year with it.....and came to the conclusion it had aweful sounding filters. The JP8000 is not in the same league as the Jupiter 8......and im a little sick of hearing people refer to it 'erroneously' as just that.....

The JP8000 to my ears lacks warmth and presence.....its pretty cold and tiring on the ears. The build quality is not too great either.....

But hey, since dance/trance/techno music has its own 'sound' then the use of VA's such as the JP8000 is ok.....just not my cup of Earl Grey...

DS

DS, quite a scary post! 8O :lol:

In fact some analog synth sounds just don't fit into trance music. I like analog monosynth sounds but some leads and strings are impossible to make with some old analog synths. They sound too harsh or dark or something. Trance needs digital sounds. And the filter of the JP sounds wonderful to my ears. I like analog filters and usually they're always better than any digital ones but JP's filter is the best one to use with supersaw.

As for bieng a jp8080 and previous virus c owner. I think the jp has a fatter saw. Not sayin the TI couldnt emulate the jp to a close degree. Until I get my hands on a TI time will tell. with Rolands great tone control the patches sound powerfull and crisp. still nothing like the sound of 2 slightly detuned super saws with light chorus in a performance patch. Both synths have their own unique lush sound.

I think the JP8000 has a character that is not easily emultaed, which is why I want to get it again. It is a synth in it's own league and goes far beyond trying to emulate other things. It can do things not many other things can do as far as sound creation. For example...take the X Mod function..that can give you some CRAZY sounds.

Just for oscilator 1 isnt it? I cant remember the Jp8000 having that waveform on both oscilators. God, just shows you how long ago it is since ive last used one. Never liked the cold digital sound....

DS

I own the JP8000 and the 8080, and I have to say I've never used the supersaws in a track because the whole thing is so dated and tiresome.

The JP8000's filter opening up on a supersaw isn't uplifting at all. It's the equivalent of Power Ballads of the 80's. The power chords which were so unbelievably heart wrenching in their hey day, but significantly shit only a few years later. This is the EXACT same situation faced by Trance. It's over the top, and it's boring.

I wonder what instruments BT and Paul Van Dyk used to make the legendary trance tracks such as Binary Finary 1998 mix and Flaming June... They certainly weren't the supercheese trance leads we have been pounded with since 2000. They're more subtle, more mysterious, and more sophisticated than just banging out an arpeggiated supersaw.

My God, look it's 2005 for **** sake, that whole concept is dead and rotting.

Make something new, with new sounds.

yea, i hate pianos, guitars and drums in pop music to....so dated now and tiresome :roll:

In all genres of music its how those sounds are used by the player/producer. Yes trance is saturated with saws, and a lot of it is shit, but there is still a LOT of good stuff being made, even with saws. Its not the instrument, its the person using it, right?

ten

yes, you're right...

but where else can one get a point across when 99% of Trance is so utterly shit and retarded, than smack bang in the middle of a debate about the supersaws.

I would personally love to hear some good trance, and someone who can breathe life into the supersaw by doing something new with it, will get my money 100%.

The fact is though, the people falling over themselves to make trance are focusing more on the cheddar sound of the supersaws than using a soulful approach, and trying to push the genre in a new direction, with fresh new sounds, which is what made trance so great all those years ago.

Trance as a concept is about embracing and imagining the future. Ask the lovers of the original wave of trance what it was that got them hooked, and the majority answer will be:

"...because it sounded like the future..."

What is futuristic about using sounds which have been used a million times for the last 6 years?

Aching for a JP8000 style supersaw on the Virus TI displays such a staggering lack of vision.


P.S. Would you please link me to a resource where the good trance is being made/played these days?

Again, its how the sound is used, not the sound itself. The same as one mans noise is another mans music. Simply writing off a saw is like writing off a piano.

Trance is such a wide genre now its hard to define anything about it, future sounds I wouldnt agree on, at least not in 2005. Its evolved so much and taken elements from so many other genres, listen to tiestos new 'in search of sunrise 4' to see what kind of stuff the 'best trance dj in the world' is playing now.

As for a link you will have to be more specific. I still like the stuff Armin, Tiesto, Push etc are all making but I also like the newer moodier/funkier breed of Gabriel/Dresden and Andain. I also love the hard evil german banging shit like scot project, yoji biomenhanik, derb and kai tracid :)

ten

cool, okay.

if I give you some examples of stuff which completely blew me away, perhaps you could recommend someone similar..?

Tiesto I'm not interested in at all. Push was good, if they're still creating subtle and mysterious music, then I'm in.

Actually, the one track which really does if for me on so many levels is Subterra by Nikola Gala. Labelled Progressive House, but it holds all the values I associate with the great trance of years gone by.

I will check out the ones you mentioned, thanks.

The lead used in BT's Flaming June was a preset directly lifted from the original Virus A.

Ace.

I have never owned a virus... I am looking forward to it very much :)

although i obviously don't know it for sure, the JP series sounds like there is a kind if master EQ which you cannot switch off. the virus' frequency response is dead flat and you can make it sound pretty much like the JP if you boost around 8k. i don't have my JP8080 at hand though, maybe you need to boost around 12k as well.

best, marc

Hi everyone! this is my first post!!! :oops:
I used to own a Virus C but I sold it in November because of the announcement of the TI :?
Anyway. I figured out that beside EQing the highs of the virus, you can achieve better results in the higher frequencies by exciting. I personally use the Aphex exciter, model 250. It adds detail in the highs in an EXTREMELY discreet way, giving the virus an even more unique character that it already has. I have tried every excisting software eq, including Sony oxford (ProTools) and some software exciters but they didn't do the thing. It's odd though that we still have to use the analog domain to achieve certain things, especially with all this technology around us!

Pseudo, check out the ASOT (A State Of Trance) radio show played out by Armin van Buuren on Thursdays.

The radio show has recently moved from ETS-Global.org to its new location at Digitally Imported at www.di.fm.

Here's the direct link to the stream where ASOT will be played out: http://www.di.fm/mp3/trance.pls

I don't know where you're based in the world, but here are the different international times when it is broadcasted: Digitally Imported Radio (www.di.fm) every Thursday 2PM US Eastern / 7PM UK / 20:00 Central European Time on the Trance channel.

There's a lot of great new trance out there at the moment.

I especially love "Mike Foyle vs. Signalrunners - Love Theme Dusk" either the Mike Foyle's Gladiator mix or Mike's Broken Record mix.

And I absolutely love the Sensation white anthem 2005 "Armin van Buuren - Serenity".

Both absolutely f'kin awesome trance tunes!!! :D (still unreleased, but check out the radio rips).

Seeyou...Welcome!

And thanks for the advice, I'll make sure to try out that exciter :)

cheers Timo,

I'm in Brighton, UK.


listening to that stream now...


...so far it's 'uplifting' cheddar, but I'm guessing there'll be some subtle stuff in the mix too. I'll stay tuned...

pseudo

Ignore the rest, just tune into that stream on thursdays, 7-9pm, to hear Armin's ASOT show. ;) I couldn't listen to di.fm for the rest of the time. :P Cheese city.

SeeYou, thanks for the exciter tips. I think Manuel Schleis may use some form of enhancer on his MP3 demos of his soundsets to give them more presence/bite, but I'm not sure. Anyone know? Or are they the raw Virus, with absolutely no external effects?

He says the only effects he uses on the mp3 demos are some cubase reverb and mod delay.....he does make some bitching sounds :)

ten

Seeyou: Just had a look @ the prices and the Aphex 250 is listed at 899$ USD, a bit over my range for an exciter. Is there any cheaper alternative for similar results? Worst comes to worst I'll make sure to rent one and if I really like it, I might just buy it :)

Check out the aphex 204. :D

Pseud:

You should really check out Juno Reactor if its trance with finesse and culture you are looking for. These guys take the cake if you ask me.

Futuristic symphonies at their finest :lol:

Each to their own and all that, but I have to say, I've checked out these recommendations:

Armin, Tiesto, Push, Gabriel/Dresden and Andain, Scot Project, Yoji Biomenhanik, Derb and Kai Tracid...

...and I am shocked that these are considered to be good examples of Trance moving forward. It's vapid. Soulless masturbation.

I'm off to check out Juno Reactor now... (fingers crossed)

Souless Masturbation.....thats a great word man lol :lol:

DS

Well, it is...

"...look, this is how Trance goes like... Look, I'm making Trance, and it sounds like Trance, it has a hard beat man, totally tumping, and then after a while this uplifting lead comes in, starting all muffled and filtered, like the real passion about to take off is being suppressed by an unknown force, but then this force lifts, and the passion flows through the dance floor like a spirit, a spirit of pure techno and musical harmony and melody ..."

The only spirit involved in this music is the sticky vodka being spilt on the floor as the drunken twats who know no better than to dance to this mindless absurdity fall over eachother to 'go off'.

All meant in jest of course. It's just my style to completely ridicule some else's ideas of right and wrong ;)